(i almost forgot that this was sitting on my hard drive from the other day, and we couldn't have a blog entry just go missing, could we? ;)
the top 10 reasons why i fart in the general direction of web based office suites:
10. privacy: aside from yo' momma, who wants their personal data on someone else's servers?
9. the web browser provides an interface (menus, toolbars) and you want to shove another one, even more complex inside of it's little viewing area? this may work ok for email, but .... a word processor? c'mon!
8. jwz hasn't yet figured out how a web office suite will get him (or the average college dorm rat) laid, therefore i must pass on it.
7. the prospect of purchasing new servers for the office to run software we already have working just fine on the desktop is inane, thank you very much
6. training costs, anyone?
5. there have been web based (though not AJAX, granted) office apps for years and they haven't caught on
4. it's bad enough reading email chews up RAM because it's delivered via a web browser, do we really need a word processor that requires 1GB of
RAM?
3. 100% 24x7 networking in the office is a dream we're still years away from achieving
2. even with AJAX, the web browser isn't nearly rich enough to meet the demands of spreadsheet and desktop database users (and no, XUL isn't ev
en close to being wide spread enough to matter). try getting groucho in marketing to let go of his linked-to-million-other-data-sources-realtim
e-updating-charts-with-a-billion-sheets-and-split-frames-with-funky-data-input-widgets-on-top spreadsheet.
1. there's no easily accessible and dependable network on the airplane, most coffee shops, on the highways between major cities on the beach or just about anywhere else that isn't an office or house in a developed country. and if your spreadsheet doesn't let me read and edit my information wherever the hell i happen to be, your app doesn't get used. period.
IMHO, web based office suites are being hyped for two reasons:
0. everyone loves raymond. and by raymond i mean buzzwords. and by buzzwords i mean "AJAX", "browser based apps" and "google".
1. they're trying to solve the ubiquity problem, but there are better ways to do that (and they even run in a web browser if you really must!)
and if, like ben meyer, you too want remote storage and revisioning ... that has nothing to do with the web ;)
so repeat after me: the web is a cool platform, but it's not the best platform for all applications.
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5 comments:
I have a bridge to sell those guys... *rolleyes*
I have to admit, I'm a bit of an AJAX coder, so I'm biased here, but I think you're over-reacting to this.
I believe that some sort of web-based office suite is kind-of inevitable, in the same way that email, calendering, and other PIM stuff has been available online for years.
Granted, it may not be full-on desk-top publishing, but for simple document management, it's hard to avoid being attracted to a system that allows you to access your documents from any Internet-connected machine in the world, without requiring that the machine have anything more than a browser installed.
True, desktop applications offer better response times and more flexibility, but how much flexibility do you need, to create a spreadsheet that does simple addition, multiplication, etc?
Maybe it isn't for everyone, but I believe that web-based ...everything... is inevitable.
Recently, for example, I was considering the SVG capabilities in Konqueror, and wondered whether it would be possible to create an AJAX-based Presentation application, using SVG as the drawing tool, and JavaScript as the controlling language. Firefox is rapidly maturing its integration with Cairo, so that possibility becomes more and more obvious over time.
Yes, 24-7 networking is still a dream, but I find that when my net connection goes down, I don't get much work done anyway, whether it's possible to work offline or not.
Kae
10. privacy: aside from yo' momma, who wants their personal data on someone else's servers?
LOL. Yer, everyone does everything in-house!
Businesses of any size, and especially small businesses. I have lost count of the number of small businesses that have had client/server IT infrastructures put in (if you can call them that) that just do not bloody work without spending a lot of money and then money again on support, and then they get ripped out again when they look for another company that will actually do it properly. Steps in a web app world:
1. Create account, or sign-up and/or pay for a business account.
2. Logon to personal business space.
3. a) Create, share, search and edit documents within your space.
3. b) Download documents in any conceivable format, edit on a rich client and synchronise back if you want.
3. c) Access documents from anywhere.
I won't insult your intelligence as to the god-awful mess that usually happens in most companies to get that working - if it ever does.
Besides, if you rely on an ISP, a third-party e-mail provider that isn't you or a third-party hosting company for your blog then you're already giving some privacy away so you lose there. It is something you can choose to give responsibility for, or do it yourself.
9. the web browser provides an interface (menus, toolbars) and you want to shove another one, even more complex inside of it's little viewing area?
Yer. It's been done with Office documents and Open Office documents (even in Konqueror). The browser becomes your application when you open your document. Browsers do plugins also I think. I take it you've never opened a PDF inside a browser, so all that KDE integration is useless.
8. jwz hasn't yet figured out how a web office suite will get him (or the average college dorm rat) laid
Microsoft believes the small business market will be worth something like $750 billion. Completely subvert the client/server way of doing things, make it a hundred times easier for these businesses and people, make it easy to support, rinse, repeat, profit, women!
7. the prospect of purchasing new servers for the office to run software we already have working just fine on the desktop is inane
Get an ASP (Application Service Provider) to do it. That could be Google, it could be someone else. I seem to remember ASPs being hyped by people in the past, but it can't happen with Microsoft's (or anyone's) crap client/server model. Anyway, if you want to do it yourself then since most businesses spend daft money on servers (with unused capacity) anyway that doesn't tally with my version of reality. It doesn't have to be completely, 100% server-based though.
6. training costs, anyone?
I don't recall having to train anyone to use Google, a web browser or having to train people much with Open Office. Sounds like Microsoft.
5. there have been web based (though not AJAX, granted) office apps for years and they haven't caught on
Doesn't necessarily have to be HTML or Javascript based. Besides, in the past web-based apps hosting has generally meant signing up for a subscription which few people are really willing to do, which is why it just hasn't worked.
do we really need a word processor that requires 1GB of RAM?
It doesn't have to be like that.
3. 100% 24x7 networking in the office is a dream we're still years away from achieving
It doesn't have to be completely network based, and a level of client redundancy can be built in when the network is down.
2. even with AJAX, the web browser isn't nearly rich enough to meet the demands of spreadsheet and desktop database users
Browser plugins?
1. there's no easily accessible and dependable network on the airplane, most coffee shops, on the highways between major cities on the beach
See point 3.
1. they're trying to solve the ubiquity problem, but there are better ways to do that
That's a web app - it's distributed over a network.
(and they even run in a web browser if you really must!)
That's a web, web app!
you too want remote storage and revisioning ... that has nothing to do with the web ;)
I'll get some second-hand Token Ring kit then :-). Anything distributed over a network is a web app.
so repeat after me: the web is a cool platform, but it's not the best platform for all applications.
No, but it solves a longstanding problem that will not be solved by shite, standalone client/server installations.
9. the web browser provides an interface (menus, toolbars) and you want to shove another one, even more complex inside of it's little viewing area? this may work ok for email, but .... a word processor? c'mon!
It's not correct. Application can open window without menus/toolbars.
various replies mixed up here:
> it's hard to avoid being
> attracted to a system that
> allows you to access your
> documents from any
> Internet-connected machine in
> the world
agreed; but AJAX is not going to cut it for office apps. there are ways to access documents from any internet connection machine in the world, even if all you have is a web browser, and it doesn't use crappy HTML+JavaScript insanity.
> I find that when my net
> connection goes down, I don't
> get much work done anyway
this is not representative of the majority of office users =)
> a third-party e-mail provider
> that isn't you or a third-party
> hosting company for your blog
> then you're already giving some
> privacy away so you lose there
there is a difference between public and private content. my blog is public content. much of my email is public content. some of it isn't and i sometimes have to take that risk, which is unfortunate.
but things like accounting reports, sales materials, personal letters and the like are far more sensitive and in business and governmental settings usually come under privacy rules and/or laws.
> I take it you've never opened a
> PDF inside a browser
there's a difference between viewing (aka "browsing") and editing. even konqueror isn't insane enough to attempt that.
not to mention that konqueror's viewing embedding uses native widgets and doesn't relocate your data.
> Anything distributed over a
> network is a web app.
no, they're not. are NFS and windows file sharing (SMB/CIFS) "web apps"? are network enabled games "web apps"? is every app on kde-apps.org a web app because you download it from a website?
no, this isn't even close to the definition, let alone what i was talking about =)
much of the rest of your reply, segendum, steps around issues (like it doesn't have to take a ton of RAM, and yet an AJAX based word processor with the requesite features *WOULD*; that's the point =)
> It's not correct. Application
> can open window without
> menus/toolbars.
this is probably the most accurate counter point yet made ... it requires launching it from another web page (or a specially crafted launcher icon on the desktop), but that basically moots point #9.
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