(Now that I have your attention with that title ... ;)
I just committed a change to the default desktop containment that removes desktop icon support. Yes, it has finally happened ... no more splattering icons from the "desktop" folder across the screen. Buh-bye.
Let me pause while some of you get all worked up and ready to punch the "Add comment" link to flame me to kingdom come.
<pause>
Ok, so here's what a Plasma desktop looks like with a fresh user account right now (well, minus the trashcan):
In the screenshot you can see krunner doing its thing as well as the new panel layout. There are some icon sizing issues remaining to be worked out in the panel as you can probably see, but it's getting closer.
"Hey!" I hear you say, "I see icons on that desktop!" That's quite right. (And, I must say, you are quite observant today. ;) So what was a mumbling about earlier then when I said the icons were gone?
Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik Höglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.
You can have 0, 1 or more of these folder views in your plasma, all viewing different (or the same, I suppose) folders. You can put them on different activity areas (aka "desktop containments") as well.
Chani has been working on the activity area support and now has a rather crazy setup on her laptop with 10 or so containments of various sorts. She's also made it possible to switch around between them (as well as applets in side them) using the keyboard only ... but I'll let her blog more about that herself. Suffice it to say for now that you can easily build project or activity specific sets of files, folders, launchers and widgets and swap between them easily.
In the future we'll have a little label in the folderview telling you which folder you are looking at, it will turn into an icon with a menu listing in horizontally constrained containments (e.g. panels), it will be collapsible on the desktop with a single click (it's already resizable, rotatable and removable) and you will be able to use it as a containment itself.
That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. So don't bother with that flame, nobody has anything to complain about. ;)
In 4.2 we'll be separating context menus and background rendering from containments so that those functionalities can be easily shared; so while in 4.1 you can set the folder view as your desktop containment ... it's not going to be as pretty as it will be in 4.2. In 4.2 it will be completely seamless, whereas right now you'll get a "nice" wallpaper based on the applet background svg. Call it the Model T wallpaper: any colour you want, as long as it's the applet background ;)
This is all yet another set of steps in the move away from a file-centric system and towards one that is flexible enough to work the way you do rather than making you work the way the computer thinks you should.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
225 comments:
1 – 200 of 225 Newer› Newest»Best. Change. Ever.
Seriously, I can't bring myself to use KDE4 at the moment almost solely because I hate the icons on the desktop with a seething hatred, and can't figure out how to turn them off.
Looks brilliant.
@daniel: "can't figure out how to turn them off."
right click on the desktop, select "desktop settings" turn off the icons.
@daniel and kared: thanks =)
it's what i originally wanted for 4.0 but we just didn't have the resources (time, manpower and some missing useful bits in the libs) to make it happen.
but 4.1 is a brave new world of happiness.
That would make sense to turn them off, wouldn't it...
Ah well. I'm just going to hold out for this with 4.1.
The uses for this are flooding to me... I can have a "desktop" folder for my server in a pane on my desktop...
Nope, can't flame that at all, come to think of it having my home directory there when I need it would be nice. That said Dolphin is nice too, alternatives and why not.
looking great!
the only question I have is why on earth are the shadows in the folderview plasmoid way more attractive and going in a different direction than those in the labels in krunner?
@Mike Wyatt: "why on earth are the shadows in the folderview plasmoid way more attractive and going in a different direction than those in the labels in krunner"
same reason those fugly buttons are still at the bottom of krunner: i haven't finished finessing krunner yet.
good eye, btw. most people don't notice such things =)
Well, sorry but I don't like this new approach. A big black box on the desktop really isn't what I want. I want my icons directly on my wallpaper, because I want to see both of them. I don't want a black box to cover my wallpaper, seriously, no matter how beautiful black is (TM). If icons weren't treaten like real plasmoids (as they are in 4.0) but more like icons on any other OS, _that_ would be really cool. There's no need to rotate an icon, really. I like that way to quickly access my most used programs.
I knew this was gonna happen soon or late, and I think I like how it's gonna be in KDE 4.2.
Only one question. Why do you give this issue such a low priority?
How many KDE 3.5 users completely switched to KDE 4? 1%?
KDE 4.1 was claimed to be the version of the switch when 4.0 was released, but with this "problem" people will wait till 4.2 that will be probably after Christmas.
I like how the whole thing is coming up and I svn up from 4.0 beta (on another partition), but imo the lack of time and manpower should be on the more revolutionary features rather than on the stability and usability issues.
Just the 2 cents of a user willing to switch completely to KDE 4.X from a looong time.
These changes fix what makes me hate (and I mean _*HATE*_) kde3's desktop.
As I speak, I have three layers of icons on the right side of my desktop because it's run out of room to place them. That folder widget will be a godsend.
Aaron, you are a God.
I have 3 icons on my KDE3 desktop: each underneath a SuperKaramba widget to relaunch it if it crashes. That's it.
I am SO putting a Folder Plasmoid for ~/tmp on my desktop. I may forgo the idea of waiting to screw up my computer until after finals, and attempt to install KDE4 from SVN over memorial day weekend. (Assuming Bug 160892 is fixed. Everyone has their make-or-break bug, and that's mine: global shortcut keys don't work in KDE4.)
But nay, shall I not end on a positive note? That is a *bloody brilliant* idea to separate the background painting task from the plasmoid... that opens up so many possibilities! What kind of device will do the painting? A flare or a ray, or something cleverly plasma named? I'd love to write such "wallpaper" engines to control the background display: change the containment background to reflect the weather outside, or the stock market, etc.
This is really good. Add that with Nepomuk, you would be able to see all your files that tagged 'project a' for example. Couldn't wait for 4.1
A feature that will be great for folderview widget is like the pile feature from Grape desktop (http://tayasui.com/Grape.html), where you can zoom in/out of the view.
Excellent work! :)
I'm using current SVN trunk (from yesterday really) with folder view and it kick ass!
I noticed that you mention: "You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. ". However, I cannot drag files from dolphin to the folder view (the other way just works fine) nor I can't delete them directly from the plasmoid. Indeed, there's no context menu available when right clicking into a file.
Is anything of this planned for 4.1?
Also, I noticed that black background seem to cover actual wallpaper. My workaround is using slim-glow theme which has translucent background :) Btw, is actual plasma theme going to the default for 4.1?
Thanks for your time. Keep rocking!
:D
Is it possible to hack the folder view plasmoid to have a transparent background? And keep a 1px rounded white border around it?
I think it would be an exelent compromise between ugly 4.0.x desktop icon and the ugly big black box of folder view.
I have no time to do a nice mockup today, but 30 sec in Inkscape is enough to do that:
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4711/folderviewdt5.png
A scrollbar may be needed too, and a semi-trasparent overmouse effect.
I think it is nicer than the actual folderview.
Sorry for being off-topic, but your screenshot highlights another problem: Tall taskbar buttons. I use KDE3 on a 800 px tall screen, and have a 54 px tall panel which holds a taskbar with three rows of buttons. This judicious usage of space is essential for me. I hope it's possible in KDE 4 too.
I'm still longing for the day the black icon background gets removed.
It looks so ugly. :\
Please...
amazing work, really, Aaron!
To everyone complainging about the look of Plasma I would suggest to use the 'elegance' theme. It has a slightly transparent background so you can see your wallpaper, and it's truly elegant...
Amazing work, Aaron, really!
To everyone complaining about the looks, I suggest to try the 'elegance' theme for Plasma, it is truly elegant!
Amazing work, Aaron, really!
To everyone complaining about the looks, I suggest to try the 'elegance' theme for Plasma, it is truly elegant!
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7615673&postID=4063138588683319581
I still have a problem with the looks of the tasks in the taskbar. They look....don't know how they look, but they just do not seem right. When the taskbar switches to a two row layout, it looks better to me. Is there a way to have 2 rows by default?
Hi, i hope this is ready after all those comments.
First i was thinking i was the only one with that "bug", but now i see it on that screenshot.
The tasklist is seriously broken, look at all those tasks, and there is no second line of tasks, it's unusable! realy.
I know there is code to make the tasks to be put in two lines when there are enough, but clearly that limit is too high.
That and the desktop are actualy the thing that keep me in kde3, so, one seems to be resolved, one more to go ;-)
I like where this is going if I understand correctly how it is going to work eventually. Will it be possible to change between multiple folder views ? Will there be a "current context" view that can display using queries on Nepomuk files and actions that may be related to what the user is currently doing on his computer ? To be honest I can't agree with the looks of it right now at all. I think it will be wrong to market it unless it's transparent, default and seamless with the desktop. The overwhelming majority simply won't put up with a large black/blue/whatever mass or distracting borders on their desktop.
OK, now I kinda start seeing where all this plasma stuff is going, and Im ust say I like it :)
However:
- +1 to the "transparent folder view background with 1px border"
- Those icons are *HUGE*, specially the ones in the new Krunner. Haven't tried SVN trunk yet, but I hope the icon size will obey the overall system settings or something.
- The new krunner dialog looks ridiculously small. It should be made larger (or even scrollable/resizable), so it can accomodate a broader view of the search results.
- I also agree that tall taskbar buttons are ugly, coarse and not more "usable" than the thin ones, but well, we already know your stanza on this regard. :(
Anyway, good stuff, all in all.
"there is no second line of tasks"
with genius like this available for free on the internet, it's amazing we don't have perpetual motion machines and solutions for world hunger yet.
*rolls eyes*
"The overwhelming majority simply won't put up with a large black/blue/whatever mass"
thank you for avoiding the idea and concentrating on the artwork.
let me direct you to the artists who you can then complain to endlessly.
in the meantime, i'll get back to making things possible.
and yes, i think your "oh no, it must be translucent" comment is completely inane.
show me one other mainstream desktop system that is actually being brave enough to start to adjust the workflow to reflect modern needs. and yet you go on about how much you can see the wallpaper?
btw, look up the words "transparent" and "translucent" in the dictionary and in future use the one that actually means what you're trying to say.
"Will it be possible to change between multiple folder views ?"
the answer is in the blog entry. (hint: the answer is "yes")
This is SO going to rock! Folder views coupled with multiple containments (or activities) would make my work a lot better (I usually work on two projects at a time, using two rather different set of tools).
"Those icons are *HUGE*, specially the ones in the new Krunner. Haven't tried SVN trunk yet, but I hope the icon size will obey the overall system settings or something."
yes, 64 pixels on a desktop system is just soooo big. 2 lines is almost 150 pixels! that'd be 22% of the height of the original mac's screen! back in 1984! omg!!!!!!
"The new krunner dialog looks ridiculously small."
so icons are too big, but the window is too big. maybe you should try actually using it first.
"It should be made larger (or even scrollable/resizable),"
it is.
"I also agree that tall taskbar buttons are ugly, coarse and not more "usable" than the thin ones, but well, we already know your stanza on this regard. :("
so you know that i'm going to say, "wow, great job on stating the obvious since we had multi-line taskbar in 4.0 for this very reason; glad you were able to pick out the obvious regression as we approach the *betas*."
i'm guessing that isn't what you meant by "my stanza on this regard". =P
"Anyway, good stuff, all in all."
no, please, continue to state the obvious and be negative.
"that'd be 22% of the height"
fail. it's ~33%. still, 1984. 1/3rd. point is still made. the complaint about an icon that isn't miniscule is rediculous.
@luca: "I usually work on two projects at a time, using two rather different set of tools"
this is a fundamental understanding that i only really arrived at (despite working this way myself!) after spending time doing field research on how people use their computers.
it seems obvious in retrospect, but it wasn't something i'd honestly clearly considered before all those hours spent watching other people interacting with their desktops.
truly eye opening stuff.
@Aaron: I assume that in the long run Containments would be independently "themed" (notice the quotes: I mean, be totally unlike each other)?
Oh, and rather obvious (sorry if it's stupid) question: folder view plasmoid is configured via rightclick or the hover icon?
@Aaron: I understand where you are coming from, with you putting up a lot of effort and people complaining at everything new in spite of that effort, but as I already said I like the idea. My objections on the visual part were done because I love KDE and I'm worried when I think something might be wrong. Hang me for this and for not knowing the difference between transparent/translucent (after all english is not my mother tongue ...). No need to be attacking your own side for speaking out their concerns, especially when they're ignorant on technical aspects ... And sorry for the out of context message :)
@aaron:
I know you get upset by critics sometimes, this time by obvious critics. But take it as a compliment! If people critic minor things, and things you call regression which means they are going to be fixed soon and are not supposed to be that way, then that means that they like the rest of what they see! That the taskbar does not have a second line is a valid critic when looking at that screenshot, even if you say that this is stupid and a regression, but it also means that that person liked the whole rest (even the fact that that person takes the time to read your blog and post a comment means that he/she is interested in kde4, and cares for its success).
The ability to use this folder view applet as containment is truly brilliant!! :-)
Especially combined with a background wallpaper on the containment in 4.2. Whoa.
Still be able to use the old classic interface, but easily reshape it to something completely different. *best change ever*!
Aaron,
I really enjoy reading your blog on KDE Planet.
Your Plasma project has gone from strength to strength, its a testament to all things that are good in the open source world.
Thanks for being so innovative, positive and enthusiastic in your coding and your postings - I'm living my dream through your eyes!
Keep those blogs a comin'!
Aaron, just want to say you are doing a great job and I am proud that some people at last try new things. Its a shame that everything takes such a long time but the end result is worth it.
You KDE guys rock !!!
really like this but I also like the mockup of Elv1313... please, make possibile to use transparent background for this plasmoid!!
hey Aaron do you still use kde3 ktorrent? there is kde4 version too
Yeah yeah yeah, fuck the desktop's icons away!! I *really* hate them, and while I have some of them on my KDE3 desktop, it's just due to some random crazy defaults not being changed (for example, Firefox saving downloads in ~/Desktop). As someone said, this is a $DEITYsend, because it will (or should) make both kinds of users happy:
- people like me hating desktop icons
- people used to this insane addiction called "desktop icons".
Obviously ther'll be still people complaining but... that's life.
Great work! :)
It is a great idea, but do you think you could add the ability to hide the widget's background, like the Clock?
Dreams come true :-)
yeeee, me happy, me pops a bottle of "red fizzy wine" of tokamakian memory :P
I like very much the folderview! I also like the containments/activity stuff... I find very natural to have different activities on my desktop for every day work. Many congrats and thanks to you all, guys!
But (there is always a "but" :) ) "real activities in everyday work" (TM) are made of many things: files, links, resources, applications, etc...
It seems that Plasma already provides many of these things in form of Plasmoids, but AFAIK (sorry if I'm wrong) applications are not controlled by Plasma activities, but belongs to virtual desktop (controlled by KWin).
I think that this issue (how activities/containments are related to virtual desktops) should really be addressed to have a real and total control on "activity switching".
I know that there is already some debate about it, can you tell us something more?
Thank you very much for your great work!
A brave move. I've been wanting something like this for years and when I heard about 'containments' in Plasma it was the first thing I thought of but now it's here I'm quite apprehensive.
For those complaining about the look: This is KDE you'll be able to make it look just how you like in due course.
Oh and thanks. Good work.
Am I right in thinking that the icons in this kind of plasmoid will be interacted with in the "classic" way or as if you had been interacting with them through dolphin? In other words, right-click + delete deletes the file. And not like they are plasmoids-within-a-containter that you need to manipulate like say the notes-plasmoid.
I really hope so, because the way icons on the desktop behaves in 4.0.x REALLY bugs me, and most people I've seen using KDE4.
Still, it doesn't bug me so much to stay away from KDE4 and been using it as my sole desktop for some time already - and can't wait for 4.1 to become ready. Only wish I had the skills to compile everything needed from source so I could try 4.1 properly...
Thank you for your work on plasma. With every post about plasma the idea behind it gets clearer... and I really like it!
it will be really good!
I understand the irritated answers by Aaron, because indeed, people are missing the point and implications of what will be possible, only emphasis is on some subjective negative aspects of the looks.
So to balance the good vs bad reactions I add one to the "good" side!! Thumbs up!
Oh yes baby! This is going to be sooooo useful. :D
Actually I dislike icons on the desktop and haven't had any on mine in the KDE3 series either. I do wonder though, if icons don't show on the desktop and plasma can display the contents of any folder on your desktop then what is the point in having a folder called 'desktop' when it is actually no different to any other folder?
Anyway, thanks again for all your (an d other kde devs) work. KDE 4.0 is nice, I'm using it, but 4.1 is looking awesome.
Hey Aaron!
The concept is amazing.
Having the ability to switch the source of folder by the time you need it and to have multi-folder view in the same time is great when you work on different project. Specially if you work in team with shared folder !
No more bazaar desktop folder, just folder view on the desktop and you keep data in the right place.
As already said brillant !
Would like to say some remarks in hope than it can be useful to make kde (new) users happy :
- Like Luke said it will be great if you can make the background transparent like the analog clock. In fact i think that there is other plasmoids that it woul be great to look like this. TrashCan, Hard Disk monitor, etc...
- AutoMagically resize the plasmoid to the good size by using the available space (limited by other plasmoid).
- When you are resizing the plasmoid don't stretch the folders. This is perhaps a default setting for plasmoid, but with this one it is a little surprising
- When the available space for plasmoid is not enough use scrollbar. If i well understand this can be possible thanks to WoC ?!
Other remark for plasmoid in general :
- The rectangular border, who is showed when plasmoid have the focus to enabled showing configuration options, rotating and resizing is not very pretty. Perhaps you can not show him at all and just show the dedicated icons on the left top of the plasmoid when the focus come.
- Enabled the resizing of plasmoid directly when you put the mouse at the border, like other common windows.
I know that is for a lot of my remarks artwork issue. Plasma Concept in general is very great and will revolutionnary user experience of the Desktop. I'm waiting kde 4.1 (i'm using trunk version for my own) to encourage my friends to switch to Linux. I know that plasma will be a big improvement for them and i want for them a perfect Desktop, functionally and looking speaking.
Thanks for all the great job you make with the plasma team
Cheers,
Loic
Finally it makes sense to put the downloaded files on the desktop.
This was kind of expected, but it doesn't change the fact that it rocks. I don't have icons on my current desktop (KDE3), but with Plasma I might consider to have one folder view or two. :o~
@blueget: Uh, read the original post?
I'm afraid folder views are no real replacement. Unless maybe if I can really place icons inside this folder view wherever I want and have them stick there, without the view regrouping them based on standard order criteria like modification time, name, etc, and the view remembering the placement between sessions.
I'm also afraid that with "no icons" being the new default nobody will fix the annoying bugs that make _me_ hate the KDE4 desktop, like
- removing the plasmoidal "decorations" around the icons (who needs them to rotate and resize anyway?)
- fixing the bugs that make them appear in random positions no matter where you put them?
- fixing the focus bug that make them stay highlighted when you quickly move the mouse across them?
Amazing. Whenever I work on a project, I use the desktop as a workspace...I drag all the files there, work with them, and put them away and clean it up to my nice minimal goodness. Now I can just open the folder directly on to the desktop. Such flexibilty, such ease of use...keep up the amazing work.
Will I be able to put a shortcut to a folder directly onto the wallpaper? That's the way I like to organise my work.
The idea isn't bad. Three things:
-Folder containment should be trasparent and to show the background around icons;
-Icons should be selectable;
-On each icon you should have a context menu with "delete", "move", "cut", "proprieters", etc.
Waiting for improvement.
I don't get all the complaining about the desktop in KDE4, really. I *never* cared much for the desktop itself, be it in KDE3, gnome or windows. Workflow is a lot slower using shortcuts and menus than command line and alt+F2. Plasma is cool because ultimately it turns the desktop into something useful in itself, the desktop will now be used to actually build software (plasmoids) on top of it and will dynamically display information on your desktop usage (like the KGet plasmoid).
I will have no use for Akregator anymore when the RSS plasmoids will get some more polishing.
Plasmoids are a much better use of desktop estate than icon clutter.
Thank you Aaron Seigo and all the KDE team for bringing usefulness in something that didn't have much of it in the past.
I have been following the development of KDE 4 with a great deal of interest. I use MS XP at work and XFCE at home, though I have installed KDE 2 and GNOME in the past. I've tried some KDE 4 Live CDs.
I use applications that I keep maximised most of the time. I like to have my file manager in a window in front of my apps rather than behind them. I think KDE 4's approach is very helpful for people who regularly work from two monitors but I am not sure that this will help me. My wallpaper is usually hidden behind my maximised application and I don't think I can bring the plasmoids in front of the applications.(Correct me if I'm wrong!)
Also, I organise my work carefully in folders, keeping my desktop uncluttered most of the time. I usually create folder(s) for my new file(s) after I have created the files. I usually first put the new file on the desktop because its hard to lose it and because I don't have anywhere else to put it at that point in time - its folder does not yet exist and I might not have decided how best to store the file.
Therefore I think I will miss the ability to easily put files on the wallpaper in KDE 4.
It's good that KDE is trying out new approaches though.
I think Plasma's ability to put different "push buttons" on the wallpaper will be very helpful. I'd like to, say, have a big red button that e.g. launches two applications at once and also opens a related folder at the same time. That sounds very possible.
Although a little trivial, I enjoyed playing with picture frame plasmoids.
Akonadi sounds very useful and should lead to a very integrated desktop.
mmh
CRAZY IDEA:
1)transparent background +
2)possibility to put icons not only in grid but also free in any position of the plasmoid +
3)plasmoid big as the desktop +
________________________________
=
i can put icons in any place of the desktop and they are usable as in dolphin
so we have (the possibility, if we want) the same functions of the kde3 desktop but with plasmoids...
I have to admit that this made my jaw drop, and I was ready to put it back in place and look for the "Flame" button :)
But I needed less than a minute to realize: this thing is awesome (modulo the dark background), and once you get accustomed, and find the way to fully exploit it's potential, you'll never look back.
Right now on my KDE3 desktop I have 6 icons which I hardly ever use, and a Konqueror window with tabs for the directories I need for my corrent work.
This is a much more natural and powerful way to do the same thing.
Well, it looks like my idea! You should check my screenshot.
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/4363/
Hi there,
i don't understand if icons on the desktop can be enabled or disabled...? I remember you that the power of KDE is the fully-customizable-desktop in every part of it!
IMHO icons on the desktop are INDISPENSABLE to the user. I use like links to remote folders, my files, images, directories...
I don't want to criticize the work behind KDE 4.x, indeed it is an EXCELLENT work, but it needs to be more customizable!
Thanks for the work that you are making on KDE.
Bye bye
hawake
@JT: "I don't think I can bring the plasmoids in front of the applications.(Correct me if I'm wrong!)"
Correction: "I can easily bring the plasmoids in front of the applications (default shortcut Ctrl+F12)".
:)
Great job guys! You are awesome.
About the "translucent/transparent" problem, I think that if there was an option to turn the folder view's background off (like in the battery monitor plasmoid) it would solve all this complaints.
Just a suggestion...
Keep up the great job guys and sorry for my very bad English... learning
This is so amazing! I look at where you KDE developers are going and it seems SO obvious now. Being flexible yet still amazingly simple to use beats everything else out there.
I keep thinking about how Microsoft and Apple must be thinking about their software. Since making money is their only concern they have zero motivation to change things up. Even if some developer (or even a customer) has an idea it can easily get squashed by multiple levels of management.
It seems to me like the only thing Apple and MS can do is COPY what the KDE folks are doing. Soon it won't be people crying "why doesn't kde3 look like windows 95?" and will become "how can I make windows vista look like kde 4.2?"
heh. warm fuzzy feelings all around.
ps. i use kde 4.0 full time right now and i simply do not have any icons on my desktop. =)
I have some icons in my desktop and they are organized without this...
One great feature would be if the the files on the desktop where show as tumbnails that can be resized, rotated and moved in a way that can be easily used in multitouch interfaces.
Other great thing would be the panels as just other widgets.
I have a monitor with a resolution of 1680x1050 and the KDE icons are huge.
If you go throught the reviews of the kde 4.x yo'll notice that so far the biggest dissapointment is plasma!!! Maybe it is time to think about this???
Dont you think so!??
I don't get one thing. I imagine that I will be able to see icons of the files I have on the desktop in some plasmoid. And there could be two different plasmoids shoing different files (e.g. images and all files). But how the hell I can put some files into these plasmoid??? For example, I launch menu and want to drag a shortcut to some app to the desktop. Please don't say that I need to use quick launch area. Let's imagone tha fact that i __just__ want to have a shortcut on my desktop because I used to this. So I clicked on some menu entry and I drag it to __whare__?
1. To the plasmoid that displays images?
2. To the plasmoid that displays files?
3. To the desktop (it works for all other DEs)?
4. It won't work for KDE 4.1???
Another stupid (or maybe not so stupid) question? Will I be able to use file (or shortcut) related context menu for the items (files) displayed in the folder view plasmoid? For example, rename file, or open it with non default application???
Is this possible???
@aseigo
> show me one other mainstream desktop system that is actually being brave enough to start to adjust the workflow to reflect modern needs. and yet you go on about how much you can see the wallpaper?
Please don't take this as offend. Just a curiosity. Who defines modern needs? Are you sure you know them? Are you sure you are rigt n understanding that needs?
@xpete: "I have some icons in my desktop and they are organized without this..."
that's good; now you have another way of working if you wish, and now other people who have been completely diserved by "desktop icons" have an option too. everyone wins.
"One great feature would be if the the files on the desktop where show as tumbnails that can be resized, rotated and moved in a way that can be easily used in multitouch interfaces."
when we get multitouch devices in the hands of developers, i'm sure this will happen quite naturally. one of the main reasons we have rotate in there right now is in preparation for such developments, actually.
"Other great thing would be the panels as just other widgets."
they are.
@serhiy: "Let's imagone tha fact that i __just__ want to have a shortcut on my desktop because I used to this. So I clicked on some menu entry and I drag it to __whare__?"
to the desktop or to a folderview. either way you get an icon on your desktop. if you drag it to the desktop, the icon exists as an independent object. if you drag it to a folderview, it gets placed on disk wherever that folderview is associated with and the icon is displayed along with the rest of the icons there.
so shortcuts are not affected by this development in the least.
"Will I be able to use file (or shortcut) related context menu for the items (files) displayed in the folder view plasmoid?"
that is sort of the entire point: file management.
@Dass: "mmh
CRAZY IDEA:"
not crazy at all. that's *exactly* how folderview-as-your-containment works.
neat, huh? =)
@seigo
they are.
Last time i've tested kde4 i couldn't resize, rotate and remove the panel like any other widget.
Actually i can resize but i have to use the options window.
My ideia of a panel is as a empty widget that can have other witgets inside.
@serhiy: "Who defines modern
needs? Are you sure you know them? Are you sure you are rigt n
understanding that needs?"
great questions.
people who use computers (in all their current forms) define what modern needs are.
computers and what people use them for have changed dramatically over the last 20 years, the question is "how have they changed?" the next immediate question becomes "how are modern interfaces servicing those needs?"
it's pretty obvious that today's desktop shells do pretty much nothing for aiding the use of large storage capacity volumes, highly dynamic hardware configurations or social interaction. which is to say it's easy to conclude (accurately) that whatever the nature of modern needs are in detail, today's crop of desktop shells don't service them at all.
so, we're building up an implementation that embodies a new set of thoughts on what a desktop shell could work like, while remaining realistic (e.g. people have to be able to transition from the current crop of failures to this new system, so we can't be 100% radical at the beginning)
as for my confidence in our trajectory: of course i'm not 100% sure that i'm right. only a fool would be absolutely confident based purely on their personal thoughts. but i am confident enough to actually put these ideas into action.
note that these ideas do not arrive out of thin air or on some whim, they are the result of years of dedicated thinking, research and experimentation on this particular topic.
and fortunately, there is a well tested way to arrive at valid theory:
step 0: develop hypotheses based on field research, current understandings (in this case on human-computer interaction, for instance) and a lot of critical thought
step 1: develop tools (e.g. software) that allows us to test out those hypotheses
step 2: deliver the tools that seem to work decently in pre-release testing to real users
step 3: see how these things actually work out for people
step 4: go back to step 0 and repeat.
you know, one of the interesting side effects of the open nature of communication on the internet is that people who have neither the stomach nor the mind for invention, innovation or adventure are able to constantly remind those that do just how scary doing new things is.
i sometimes wonder how my personal creative heroes from history (tesla, einstein, turing, da vinci ...) would have dealt with it.
It is VERY UGLY. Until it is transparent with 1px border it is showstopper for KDE 4.1.
@xpete: "Last time i've tested kde4 i couldn't resize, rotate and remove the panel like any other widget."
welcome to 4.1 where you can do two out of those three things.
"My ideia of a panel is as a empty widget that can have other witgets inside."
well, that's precisely how it is implemented in the code.
that challenge we face is that panels need to be in a top level window. we are constrained at this point by what windowing systems (in particular x11) allow us to do. randomly rotating windows doesn't seem to be very much in the cards ;)
we are working around as many of the limitations at the windowing level (that we don't face on the canvas itself) one by one.
so in 4.1 we have the direct manipulation interface for panels where you simply click and drag around resize handles.
the only remaining feature we don't have is arbitrarily rotated panels. i'm not sure what the use case for that would be, though. i'm thinking we probably need the ability to reflect (90, 180, 270 degree rotations) rather than arbitrary rotation, however.
floating panels (we only support edge docked ones currently) will open up new possibilities here, though, i imagine.
in any case, containments as they are implemented on the canvas have all the resize/rotate/etc magic that applets do.
so, transparent background?
thanks ;-)
Yadda, yadda. KDE3 "just works", I happen to like having program icons on my desktop, and therefore the question is the same as another commenter asked: Will KDE4.x cater to this?
Apart from that, I think the KDE4 "look and feel" is all glitz and sizzle. No change in the amount of steak provided. YMMV.
@burpnrun: 'Yadda, yadda. KDE3 "just works"'
for you, perhaps.
"I happen to like having program icons on my desktop, and therefore the question is the same as another commenter asked: Will KDE4.x cater to this?"
which i already answered, but i'll patiently answer it again: shortcuts (which is what program launchers are) are not affected by this change.
"Apart from that, I think the KDE4 "look and feel" is all glitz and sizzle. No change in the amount of steak provided. YMMV."
what an awful metaphor. bonus points for glibness without content though, as that made your statement wonderfully ironic. =)
in any case, there's a lot of 'steak' there that others are appreciating. perhaps they are all imagining things, or perhaps you just have different priorities or perceptive capabilities. the latter is favoured by occam's razor.
i'd suggest attempting to be thankful that we're spending as much time and care as we are on preserving the familiarity of the experience you are used to.
some less empathetic people might suggest that catering to the needs of the subset of the our audience who tend to be the least appreciative is a poor use of energy.
we could be a lot more 'radical' than we are; in many ways that would be a lot easier and certainly more fun. it would also screw you over. so instead we're taking it one step at a time.
you're welcome.
You should work on your attitude when replying to comments. Really.
Nice work Fredrik! Thanks Aaron for blowing his cover!
Maybe he'll blog himself someday...
Looks AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEE
This is a pretty cool feature!
Keep on rocking :)
@anonymosu: "You should work on your attitude when replying to comments. Really."
quid pro quo.
@Anonymous: "Nice work Fredrik! [..] Maybe he'll blog himself someday..."
hopefully. Fredrik does a bunch of rather cool things that i'm sure lots of people would be interested in reading about. alas, not everyone has the blogging bug =)
maybe you could drop him an email with a bit of encouragement ;)
>That last bit is important: it means >that you can have an Old Skool(tm) >desktop with an icon mess if that's >what you really, really want.
And that is all we care about: being able to do what WE want, not what someome else says we want.
Btw, the 'really, really' is very Miguel passive-aggressive.
Yes, we know you dont agree with the Old Skool, that's fine. Just dont try to make it seem as if this is somehow a fault.
Hey, I have no idea if the folder thing will work or not, so Im not gonna badmouth it 'until' I use it but that is why its good to have choice, you can go into a new direction which may or may not be better and not make it an all or nothing deal.
I have no problems navigating any interface even the annoying childish ones like Mac has but I do a lot of PC conversions at our local LUG, many are older people who have older computers and I try to make their experience as close to Windows as possible.
Yes, I know, I know... but I can get my 6 year to try new things (he loves showing his PCLinuxOS laptop with Compiz eyecandy to his friends). Older folks are often set in their ways and their knowledge rarely extends pass clicking here and there. I try to make them fell more at home with something they are used to.
It may sound terrible to someone like you but Im trying to help people switch and I enjoy the flexibility KDE allows me.
Which brings me to another point:
visually impaired people. I dont mean blind but people who have reduced vision.. like older people. Maybe your next brainstorming sessions could include a few people who have this problem. I've had to deal often with people needing bigger fonts, icons, letters and so on. (the large font on the clock isnt larger enough for many).
Unless you deal with this group, its rarely a problem we are aware with but I hear the 'I cant read that' very (very!!) often.
Rob Enderle
@Rob: "And that is all we care about: being able to do what WE want, not what someome else says we want."
agreed. i think that's pretty universal.
"Yes, we know you dont agree with the Old Skool, that's fine. Just dont try to make it seem as if this is somehow a fault."
my issue is not with people wanting icons on their desktop. my issue is with that being the only possible mode of interaction.
i do think it is actually sub-optimal as well and that there are better possible solutions.
i also think that, as with many better/worse options, there are people who enjoy the less efficient / flexible / etc approaches.
which is why we worked towards this particular solution: everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too.
you shouldn't care what i think about your desktop icons anymore than i should have to listen to people whinge about it ;)
"badmouth it 'until' I use it but that is why its good to have choice, you can go into a new direction which may or may not be better and not make it an all or nothing deal."
agreed. nothing is hardcoded in plasma, and we actually take a lot of pain to provide for a "looks like the old UI" presentation mode.
"older people who have older computers and I try to make their experience as close to Windows as possible."
you can do this with plasma as well =)
"It may sound terrible to someone like "
it doesn't souud terrible at all. you have a specific audience and you are trying to tailor a solution for them.
unfortunately in the past we had exactly one solution: icons representing files in a given folder (e.g. ~/Desktop) for all people to try and fit into.
that is what i'm trying to dislodge, so that we can cater any number of audiences.
in the process, some people are very concerned about change (the "we fear change" scene from wayne's world comes to mind here =)
"Which brings me to another point:
visually impaired people."
yes, this is a good point. we really need to revisit the accessibility issues at some point. perhaps something worth putting on the 4.3 roadmap right now.
The way I see it, this thing is UGLY! I think you are trying to finally kill the KDE as usable desktop environment. The Usability it provides is really great, but this is valid only for KDE 3.5.x. KDE 4 - bug after bug, idiotic ideas one after another, trying to create the most ugly interface possible.
I just can't understand, why you are destroying the best desktop environment for Linux in such manner. So far I did not think about Gnome as real alternative, but the way things are going, it looks more tempting alternative than ever!
I hope you realize what you are doing before it is too late.
And if you whant to know why people are not migrating to KDE4 - the reason is that KDE 4 is not ready to be used, and will not be for at least another year, if ofcource it survives that long.
By the way - eyecandy isn't everything. What about the functional side of the things. Dual head displays are no-go on KDE4 I can't get it to work, there are no usable settings, kde crashes every thime I try to setup dual head display. Also the shutdown dialog is too slow on my system (Core 2 Duo 2GHz, 1GB DDR2 667MHz). It takes almost half a minute to display it.
@Alvin,
I know what they're doing...creating a desktop that is going to be superior to KDE 3.x.
It's not there yet, but it is certainly usable as it is - if you accept that for the time being you have to use KDE 3.x apps for some things. As much as I love KDE 3.x, I would not be able to go back to it after having used the 4.x series exclusively for some time now. It takes a while to get used to but it has increased my productivity a lot already.
Please, be a bit more constructive. Idiotic ideas...well, you certainly have the right to think so but if you are not more specific it's hard for anyone to either fix it or come up with alternatives.
I really disagree with this. What harm is it to let -USERS- setup their desktop their way, instead of a dev telling them it has to be done their way? Just bring back the desktop icon option-Please! --Fw
"The way I see it, this thing is UGLY!"
It's a work in progress, as has been stated numerous times. Have you ever seen a new-born baby? They tend to be all purple and slimy. The purple-sliminess generally decreases as they grow, though :)
"I think you are trying to finally kill the KDE as usable desktop environment."
And I think aseigo is trying to improve it. And is succeeding.
"The Usability it provides is really great, but this is valid only for KDE 3.5.x." KDE 4 - bug after bug"
A huge departure from an existing codebase like KDE4.0.0 (and even more so for Plasma, which is a total, from-scratch re-write) is inevitably going to have plenty of bugs, and all the whining in the world won't change that. And "bug after bug" has been fixed.
"idiotic ideas one after another,"
Such as? Perhaps if you take the time to name them rather than just trolling (hint: deriding people for their mistakes *without telling them what they are and why they are bad* accomplishes nothing but demotivating people) we might be able to address some of your concerns.
"trying to create the most ugly interface possible. "
I'm pretty sure the Plasma and Oxygen people's goal is to create the most beautiful interface they can. What would be the point of making things purposefully ugly?
"I just can't understand, why you are destroying the best desktop environment for Linux in such manner."
Again, any kind of specifics - any kind at all - would be just swell, here! And what possible reason would Aaron have for purposefully sabotaging a project he has spent years on and which he himself uses all day long?
"So far I did not think about Gnome as real alternative, but the way things are going, it looks more tempting alternative than ever!"
Well, nothing's stopping you. I can't speak for Aaron, but if I were him I would cordially invite you to make good on your "threat" and make the switch - you're of no use to KDE at all. Even your criticisms are of absolutely no practical use to anyone, and criticising things is the easiest thing in the world, as blog comments seem to demonstrate over and over again :)
"I hope you realize what you are doing before it is too late."
I think the Plasma team know perfectly well what they're doing.
"And if you whant to know why people are not migrating to KDE4 - the reason is that KDE 4 is not ready to be used"
Lots of people are using it, in spite of the fact that aseigo himself said that the 4.0.x releases are the "eat your children" releases - you seem to be labouring under the delusion that a) the devs don't use KDE4 themselves b) they don't listen to (well-constructed; useful; original) criticisms from the community and c) are generally out of touch with how KDE4.0.x has been received.
"and will not be for at least another year,"
That's pretty pessimistic - trunk is pretty good now, from where I'm standing, and that's after a scant 4 and a bit months from the release of 4.0.0. I suspect that by the release of 4.2 at the beginning of next year, it will have gone beyond "usable" and into the realms of "remarkable".
"if ofcource it survives that long."
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. What exactly could kill off a juggernaut like KDE4 within the space of a year?
@Alvin: "Dual head displays are no-go on KDE4 I can't get it to work,"
get what to work, exactly?
"kde crashes every thime I try to setup dual head display."
what crashes exactly? kwin? plasma? x.org? if the latter, try checking your drivers and stop blaming us for the craptastic state of graphics drivers in x.org.
"Also the shutdown dialog is too slow on my system (Core 2 Duo 2GHz, 1GB DDR2 667MHz). It takes almost half a minute to display it."
that's really odd. it shows up instantly here. there's something really odd going on with your installation. that sucks. it's also not something i can fix for you.
"I really disagree with this. What harm is it to let -USERS- setup their desktop their way, instead of a dev telling them it has to be done their way? Just bring back the desktop icon option-Please! --Fw"
At least have the courtesy to *read* about what is going on before castigating the developers for whatever imaginary crimes you've dreamt up to torment yourself with - what you've suggested they do is *precisely what they have done*, and at no small cost of development effort, too.
@Anonymous: "I really disagree with this."
i really disagree with you not actually reading the blog entry.
"What harm is it to let -USERS- setup their desktop their way, instead of a dev telling them it has to be done their way?"
ok, evidently you skipped over the part where i said, "You will be able to use [folderview] as a containment itself.
That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. ;)"
nobody is saying users can't set it up however they want. quite the opposite, in fact: i stated *in the original blog entry above* that users can do exactly that.
what's different is that instead of a lame checkbox in some config dialog (which people can't find, apparently; see daniel's comments above about this!) we give you the ability to decide what kind of containment style you'd prefer.
that's *more* control in the hands of the user, not less.
"Just bring back the desktop icon option-Please!"
there's no need to because you can still do this.
and unlike the icons in 4.0.x these ones are generally useful. (delete, for instance)
Aaron: just ignore the people that fears change now, they will later realize and see that plasma is great, and they will love it the way I love now :D
Just keep up the great work that you are doing, you are great man :D
DEAD TO THE OLD WIMP, LONG LIVE PLASMA =D
@Aaron
i like this new things!
Because all Plasma-related is in progress and the documentation is in progress too, i have only one question:
Desktop-files are now in some ~/kde/... dirs?
The reason: i'm using Fedora9 with KDE 4.0.4 and there are no desktop-files. Do You know why?
I'm using KDE 4.0.4 now since 10 days (formaly 4.0.3 and included) and it is very stable! Thanks to all KDE-Developers and the Fedora-KDE-SIG!
Back to "no more desktop icons":
is it possible to arrange it on every desktop special?
I think about, every standard-programms on the first desktop, all graphics on the other ... and so on?
Because the Gnome and KDE-Desktop-files shines(?) not to be compatible (KDE3 had more possibilities), i'm a friend of "special desktop files for every desktop environment" or what ever else will come as a substitute with KDE4.
If i use different DEs, then i think i've a reason for different usage and so i think i don't like to use the same environment as in the different one ...
sorry for the mess but i hav only these two questions:
1. "old" desktop-files are not longer supportet?
2. can everyone have different configuration for different desktop?
Keep up the good work with breaking the walls and the possibility to do it "old-school",
Hardy
@anonymous: "Desktop-files are now in some ~/kde/... dirs?"
depends; there's still the "desktop folder" which is usually ~/Desktop (look in the Paths control panel in system settings; or open up krunner and query for "paths")
for launchers, now we just reference the .desktop file they are represented by (so no extra real file on disk) and for files we do similarly. the info on these is kept in plamsa-appletsrc
"is it possible to arrange it on every desktop special?"
not in 4.1, but we already did the design work to make it possible and will hopefully be part of 4.2.
"Because the Gnome and KDE-Desktop-files shines(?) not to be compatible (KDE3 had more possibilities),"
you can set the "desktop folder" in kde3 and kde4 to whatever you wish, actually; and you can have folderviews pointing to anything you want.
in fact, by default, the folderview that gets created is viewing the contents of your "desktop folder"
""old" desktop-files are not longer supportet?"
they are still supported, we just group them now using the folderview. if you set the folderview to be your containment (easier/nicer to do in 4.2, btw) then it's pretty much exactly like kdesktop in kde3.
well, prettier. but otherwise the same.
"can everyone have different configuration for different desktop?"
either in 4.2 or 4.3 (depending on how 4.2 dev goes)
The desktop Icon option never left. If you really want it you can create a plasmoid for each icon in a folder. I have been using KDE4 and its amazing, anyone who sits down at my laptop or borrows it seems to start randomly playing with the desktop and figuring stuff out when all they started with was launching firefox. They easily understood the new kmenu which I found fantastic. The only serious issue I have found is when plasma crashes on you and you can never get it started back up. Im sure theres a config or folder to delete so that your kde4 rebuilds back to stock but I haven't found it yet. An option to restore the plasma setup back to stock after a crash would be handy until the code settles down.
PLEASE KEEP INNOVATING!
@anonymous: "Im sure theres a config or folder to delete"
rm `kde4-config --localprefix`/share/config/plasma-appletsrc
No thanks, I'll stick to OS X, where usability is job #1, not job # 4.when.i.get.around.to.it.
"rm `kde4-config --localprefix`/share/config/plasma-appletsrc"
Sweet and Thank You
I was gonna be asking in one of my forums as soon as I had a chance to collect my thoughts and make sure I couldn't find it easily posted but no longer. I usually lucked out in breaking plasma right before a new set of packages were released for Arch whether it was KDEMOD or Markc packages. Crossing my fingers that in a short period of time I will be switching my main laptop to KDE4. :) I really can't wait to see what you guys come up with once MPX(Multi-Pointer X) is integrated and released as a standard component of Xorg. I'm Lucky enough to have access to some touch screens. Plasma only seems to continue showing its strength and flexibility considering I have seen it run on a handheld device. I will be staying tuned to KDE4 and watching as you guys progress and those wishes become reality.
Plasma in Trunk (and the rest too) looks really great!
Keep on! Thank you very much!
This should go to the dot
'i sometimes wonder how my personal creative heroes from history (tesla, einstein, turing, da vinci ...) would have dealt with it.'
'i sometimes wonder how my personal creative heroes from history (tesla, einstein, turing, da vinci ...) would have dealt with it.'
I'm not sure that Aaron is able to recruit his heroes as hackers!
Aaron, your original post was deliberately provocative. I think the responses have been moderate.
The community is genuinely concerned about the health of KDE 4 which is why we are responding to your post.
We really appreciate the hours and imagination you are putting in. I think manners will improve all round once KDE 4.1 is out.
Okay, that's great.
Now,
Stop eliding file names! And when you wrap, choose a sensible place to break words that are too long!
"flashplayer10_in" / "stall_linux_051" / "..." ? What is that?!
Nautilus can do it. You can too.
I used to like KDE, you say this is to help with work flow, but each time I feel constrained by the lack of substance. So far I'm working for KDE4 and it's not working for me. Sorry but as a user I feel this was released far to early, and I could never suggest such a desktop to friends or family.
@jt: "I'm not sure that Aaron is able to recruit his heroes as hackers!"
death is so seriously inconvenient. ;)
"Aaron, your original post was deliberately provocative."
i was actually aiming for light hearted, while recognizing how much grief we've already received over desktop icons. it's pretty impressive how emotionally attached people are to them, or rather what they represent.
"I think the responses have been moderate."
i think many of the responses were written without really reading the entry very carefully.
"The community is genuinely concerned about the health of KDE 4 which is why we are responding to your post."
that's all well and good. in fact, i'm writing these blog posts to communicate with exactly that audience.
all the same, it would be ++awesome if in the process of responding out of genuine care and concern that those responses were crafted with similar care and concern.
i doubt half the things (positive or negative) would have been said had we all been standing/sitting around in a room together discussing this. to me, that sums up the challenge (and promise?) of this relatively new communications medium.
"the challenge (and promise?) of this relatively new communications medium."
That's true. Posts are dry at the best of times. We need some lolcats to smooth things out! (There's a plasmoid.)
;->
@Aaron: I have to thank you for helping me with an important decision that I am going to make: It's about time to switch to Mac OS X because i don't like the direction that KDE4 is heading. Finally, it's pretty obvious to me that KDE will never be as good as OS X.
My new Computer is going to be an iMac.
Bye-bye Linux! Hello Apple!!
What bull! Why can't the functionality of KDE 3 remain? Some don't want Icons on the desktop, in KDE 3 you don't have to have them. Some, like me, like the most used icons in the panel, and in KDE 3 you can have them there. There is a way in KDE 3 to have the icons in a folder. The point is to enable the user to decide what they like, not the developer force the user to do it the way they like.
Why is it so darn necessary to force users to "change the way they work"? I like the way my desktop works and if this kind of horse crap keeps coming I'm not going to KDE 4 I'll go to Gnome. If I'm going to be forced to work a certain way I might as well go to the environment most distros are moving to.
If, like another person said, I want my icons right on the desktop why the heck can't I have them there? There is no logical, technical or other necessity to force people to stop doing it. The whole point of Linux is choice. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
Put the functionality from KDE 3 into, and extend KDE 4 and I'll use it, until then I'll either stick with 3 or go to Gnome.
Can I hug you?
Is there any way to loose that thing in the upper right hand corner of the desktop and just have that little one on the lower right side of the bar on your screen? If not, could we have the ability to theme it to match our desktop theme? Thanks.
@FeduP: "I want my icons right on the desktop why the heck can't I have them there?"
no reason at all. in fact .. you CAN have icons on your desktop. i covered that point in the blog entry, and then again here in the comments section.
set the folder view as your desktop containment and voila: a desktop full of icons.
"Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't."
thank you, captain obvious.
"What bull!"
personally, i recommend actually reading the article before insulting the author. just in case you find out that you and the author actually agree on something.
what do you think?
@Anonymous: "Can I hug you?"
you never have to ask =)
free hugs for everyone!
@Brokencrystal: "Is there any way to loose that thing in the upper right hand corner of the desktop and just have that little one on the lower right side of the bar on your screen?"
this depends on the containment you use. so the answer is "yes, you can" from the framework perspective, but so far we haven't seen a huge number of new containments being written. the folder view is only the fourth one, in fact.
"If not, could we have the ability to theme it to match our desktop theme?"
yes, in 4.2, which is when we'll be making it more easily themeable.
This is very interesting. I can see where it might be very handy. Coming from the perspective of someone who does not use his floor as a filing cabinet (and thus disables desktop icons), I think this is a huge improvement to the current desktop icon paradigm, while still providing basic compatibility, which we know is huge, even if have of the comments here were not ignorantly addressing that very issue. Nice Work.
Plus, it's pretty. :)
hugs for free? ok, you want it that way =)
Thanks for your great work you and the rest of the KDE developers do all the time. KDE4 from trunk is awesome and for me it's already far ahead of KDE3 and that means of everything available for linux. did I mention that KDE passed MS Win since ages? I don't know how it is with Mac OS because I never used it, but I guess KDE is at least on par with it.
btw, one question. is it possible to get plasma dashboard in front by moving the mouse to a corner like the Present Windows effect, instead of ctrl+f12.
ZOMG. How many years I dreamed about that - some GUI alternative to shell's 'ls -whatever'.
Anybody willing to port that to WinXP???
Kidding, kidding...
The best part of this article was reading all of Aaron's replies. Some were so idiotic I'm surprised he replied at all. Although I did enjoy the comebacks. :)
This is impressive. Once KDE4 reaches a stable and somewhat-finished state, I will be switching from Gnome.
Here, Aaron, let me reply to the next 6 comments for you:
Yes, you can still use desktop icons.
Yes, you can still use desktop icons.
Yes, you can still use desktop icons.
Yes, you can still use desktop icons.
Yes, you can still use desktop icons.
Yes, you can still use desktop icons. ;P
BTW that's something what M$' "Active Desktop" unfortunately never managed to become.
M$ did step in right direction - but decided to limit functionality to only what is profitable to them.
Consequently idea dies on up take - being now replaced by widgets or gadgets or whatever.
I hope that the thing from RTFA would appear soon in "aptitude install kdesktop4-environment"
Amazing work Aaron. I think for one person complaining there are 100 that just _LOVE_ all the advancements KDE4 provides so far.
I think it will be so flexible that it can everything to anyone and even people who like "old fashioned" XP like compact interfaces with small icons and small panels will be supported at one point in the future. All the small screen netbooks will make it happen, cause they are well liked by users AND developers. ( Maybe Asus should have given all KDE contributors one eeepc for free .. that would prolly speed up things ;-)
BUT:
KDE4 is still at the beginning people! Just be patient :)
Hugs
If I remember well, panel launcher icons were the same plasmoid as desktop icons. What happened to them?
I don't understand. How is this any different from loading up an instance (or two or three) of Konqueror and pointing it somewhere? In both cases, Konqueror and containments, there is a big opaque window covering up my desktop and showing the contents of a folder.
"I don't understand. How is this any different from loading up an instance (or two or three) of Konqueror and pointing it somewhere? In both cases, Konqueror and containments, there is a big opaque window covering up my desktop and showing the contents of a folder."
Its different in that its not the same...It's "stuck" to the desktop. It appears it will have different capabilities as far as sorting goes. Likely will be more flexible in the end as far as customization and backgrounds go. Etc. Etc.
I mean, you're question is similar to asking how a weather applet is different from just opening up a browser and pointing it to www.weather.com.
Hmmmm, kinda makes Vista start to look O-K.
"I mean, you're question is similar to asking how a weather applet is different from just opening up a browser and pointing it to www.weather.com."
If my ability to fire up a browser and point it to www.weather.com had been fundamentally altered, but the applet fired up a window the took up a lot of screen real estate and embedded a web browser pointed at the same site, I would indeed be asking why that is better.
I'm not making any judgements here. I'm just trying to understand why this is so much better than traditional desktop icons that they are being removed. All I can see so far is an equivalent to grouping URL icons in folders.
@the Anonymous before me
"If my ability to fire up a browser and point it to www.weather.com had been fundamentally altered, but the applet fired up a window the took up a lot of screen real estate and embedded a web browser pointed at the same site, I would indeed be asking why that is better."
I'm not sure how this uses up ANY screen real estate, since it's glued to the desktop and will not get in the way of any windows you open. If you're upset about it covering up your pretty desktop wallpaper, I feel sorry for you every time you open up a window, as that covers up a lot more than the desktop applet. How many people sit and stare at their wallpapers all day anyway?
The advantage is you don't have to store all your most commonly used files/shortcuts/whatever on your desktop. Let's say you're editing videos. You can switch the applet to your Videos folder, and have all of them readily available right on your desktop without having an extra window open that you have to alt-tab through. And when you're finished editing videos, you can switch it back to your Shortcuts folder, and have all links to your most commonly used programs again.
"I'm not making any judgements here. I'm just trying to understand why this is so much better than traditional desktop icons that they are being removed."
If you'd actually read the article (or any of the other comments on this blog), you'd see that traditional desktop icons are **NOT** being removed.
Seriously. 90% of the people here post a comment solely based on the title and the screenshot without doing any reading whatsoever. RTMFA.
Brilliant!
Grósz: they're still there.
you can still add icons to your desktop, too.
you just don't get a crapload of them spewed all over your desktop any more. :)
@Jonas - Desktop, superior to KDE3, maybe, in the distant future. On a fresh installed system KDE 4 crashes at startup. The distro is Fedora 9. The first time you start it, it starts well, if you can call well startup time of 5 minutes to working desktop. After I rebooted the PC, there is nothing - no pannel, no desktop, no application launcher, only a sound at the startup. I can't call this superior.
@Aaron J. Seigo - What crahses? The question is what did not crashed. I get white screen with nothing on it, nothing works at all.
As about the idiotic ideas - this is one of them. Also the BIG UGLY CLOCK with no way to change the size of the font. And how about the fact that the default plasma theme is really ugly. You know, black not is always beautiful. I know that there are a lot of new plasma themes, but given the fact that the kde4 does not work at all, you cant use them. And what about the size of the auto align grid of the desktop? This thing has rectangle size of a small country (based on tests with kde 4.0.2).
It is not all about eye candy, no matter what you guys think. Sometimes it is about functionality.
And yes - I know that Fedora is maybe the distro with the most bugs out there but this do not change the fact. I tried the KDE 4.0.3 on openSuSE 10.3 - same there.
PS: Maybe the greatest idiotic idea was replacing konqueror with dolphin for default file browser. If I whanted a nautilus clone, I'd used gnome.
And no, me saying I would use gnome - this is no treat, just what I think will be better, instead of kde 4, given the fact that all of the major distros are going to migrate to migrate to kde 4 in the near months.
@alvin: GET THE FUCK OFF, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR STUPID WHINES.
@Alvin, this answers to your questions http://tnij.org/kde_41_future
@alvin
its so easy to change your desktop theme, here you have a composition of some themes. wait until kde 4.1 is released and you have all these functionalities.
http://img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot1lz5.png
and also this one, to show you the beauty of plasma!
[URL=http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot2qo8.png][IMG]http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1127/snapshot2qo8.th.png[/IMG][/URL]
and also this one, to show you the beauty of plasma!
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot2qo8.png][IMG]http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1127/snapshot2qo8.th.png
I must say that KDE 4.1 is starting to appeal me more and more :). I have been thinking about getting one of those new cheap ultraportable computers sometime in the summer (depending on the availability), and I will most certainly be running KDE on it :). Maybe then I can start writing my terrible, overlong "ideas and suggestions" about KDE again. My KDE-focused blog has been dead way too long ;).
Good job Aaron!
Aaron,
Please don't take my two previous comments as offend. I don't really want to offent anyone and I am very sorry if I done.
I believe most of negative posts here (including two published by me) are just emotianal reactions. You know, people are waiting for a KDE 4 for a very long time. KDE 4.0 is already out but it has a lot of serious regressions compared to KDE 3.x. That is why people are waiting for a KDE 4.1 as a first stable realease from KDE 4.x series which they can start use for their everyday purposes. And when you say that you are changing concept of usage icons on the desktop (one of common and basic features people are used to) it is difficult to escape emotional reaction.
Personaly I can lieve without files on the desktop. Yes, it will take some time to get used to this :-). At the moment my biggest concern is that a concept of plasma desktop is becoming to complex. You say that people will be able to use folderview plasmoid as containment for the desktop. This means that thay need to know what is plasma containment, how and where they can set folderview plasmoid as desktop containment. Folder view can be resized. There could be meny folderviews simultaneously. It can be very convenient for the people who knows this. But I afraid that it becomes to complex for the non technical people who worked all the time on windows XP and who have own "concepts" of computer usage.
Just want to tell you that I really appreciate yuor work. I might don't like some of the changes you do to KDE. But this is my personal position and even when I don't like some particular changes I really appreciate the work you do for KDE in general. Thank you!
"The advantage is you don't have to store all your most commonly used files/shortcuts/whatever on your desktop. Let's say you're editing videos. You can switch the applet to your Videos folder, and have all of them readily available right on your desktop without having an extra window open that you have to alt-tab through. And when you're finished editing videos, you can switch it back to your Shortcuts folder, and have all links to your most commonly used programs again."
That made me think: Could that be automated? Thet is, when the user switches to a certain app, the container would switch to displaying certain files. That way the user would always the files he's working on right in his desktop.
A dynamic container that adapts according to the application the user is running. Hell, it could be tied to Nepomuk in such way that instead of displaying a certain folder, it could diplay all video-files (for example, it could b anything else) found in the system.
If I, as an impartial observer, may interject:
@Aaron: I think some people are taking issue at the apparent incongruity of saying "I have taken away an option" (traditional desktop icons) and "I am giving *more* functionality, not less" at the same time.
How do these two statements agree? Clearly, you are removing an option. Removing options inherently *reduces* functionality. (I would think this point would be fairly obvious: the functionality of KDE 4.x, including containment plasmoids, is unaffected by the ability to use traditional desktop icons.)
Perhaps it would help to explain the *problem* with traditional desktop icons, and why leaving the functionality intact creates a problem or issue? Perhaps it has been explained elsewhere, but I don't see it in this post.
Personally, I don't care one way or the other; I have never been a fan of cluttering my desktop with icons. That said, I recognize that many people really like and are comfortable with the way they use their desktops with traditional icons. I am adventurous enough to embrace a new paradigm, and to find ways to make it work best for my use habits; I also recognize that others have no desire or motive to change (and, rightfully so, those in such position will resist - often, vehemently so - changes being forced upon them).
Also, sarcasm in your comment replies does not suit you. It only reinforces the impression that you are forcing a way of doing things on others, whether they like it or not. Someone in your position really needs to demonstrate a thicker skin, as I'm sure criticism comes with the territory.
I would respectfully suggest that, rather than taking such an approach, your efforts would be better suited to explain how the new KDE functionality is equal to, better, easier, or more efficient than traditional desktop icons.
It's pretty clear that many people do not have such understanding. Being offensive in your replies to their comments helps no one.
All that said, I am really enjoying watching where KDE 4.x is going, and am looking forward one day to making the switch from KDE 3.
I must have missed why this was necessary. Some people like icons on their desktop, and others prefer a clean desktop.
You've repeatedly said the concept of one folder representing what appears on the desktop as horribly broken.
I however must have missed when you explained why it is so broken that you feel the need to alienate most of your users. No doubt most will find this an inconvenience at best, and I see no benefit yet.
Please explain what is fixed by removing the concept of one folder representing your desktop? If anything, I think the concept is genius in simplicity, that anyone can figure out where those items are if they save to the desktop, and how to put things there.
I understand that filters for different items on the desktop for different tasks would be a nice feature for power users, but I don't see how the two items can't co-exist.
In simplest terms, I have one icon on my desktop for each project I'm working on. When I open that folder, I access those files I need for that work. Virtual desktops allow you to do the same even better. I just never bother using more than one desktop for some odd reason.
So please explain which problem we're fixing here that supposedly exists.
@Serhiy: "are just emotianal reactions"
unfortunately this isn't a place for people to vent. in my space, which is what this is, i prefer to interact on a thoughtful and intellectual level and tend to discard tantrums with prejudice.
"This means that thay need to know what is plasma containment, how and where they can set folderview plasmoid as desktop containment."
nope. in 4.2 there will be GUI to do this right along side your wallpaper config. neat, huh?
"Folder view can be resized. There could be meny folderviews simultaneously. It can be very convenient for the people who knows this."
thankfully it follows the same pattern as any other widget so shouldn't be difficult to pick up. this is why i've been very adamant on the consistency-between-components approach: it allows us to introduce new concepts one step at a time with people learning as they go.
@Janne: "That made me think: Could that be automated?"
now you're thinking 2 steps ahead =)
this is where we are slowly edging towards; it is precisely this sort of "computer matches you" philosophy that i think must end up being an attribute of future interfaces.
@chipbennett: "How do these two statements agree?"
the whole point was to get people to think about it. offer two seemingly incongruent statements, both of which are actually true, and people must then step outside of business-as-usual thinking.
my blog here is a way for me to interact with thinking people. it's not a marketing tool. go to the dot for that. when we engage in marketing, we make it simple and straight forward.
my personality is not very marketing, though. that's just a hat i wear as necessary. my real self, which is what i display in my blog among other places, is a lot more interesting, complex and thoughtful than that.
"Clearly, you are removing an option. Removing options inherently *reduces* functionality."
but you're missing the second part of this: we're adding a new set of functionality.
we're replacing the inflexible, only-one-way-to-do-it and one-folder-ever concept with something a lot more interesting, useful and flexible.
so we've removed a stupid option (for the above reasons) and added to the system a smarter option that works a bit differently but much better.
yes, this requires thinking for a few minutes, but consider that the price of admission to reading my blog ;)
"Perhaps it would help to explain the *problem* with traditional desktop icons, and why leaving the functionality intact creates a problem or issue? Perhaps it has been explained elsewhere, but I don't see it in this post."
yes, i have described it in the past. i could endlessly repeat the problems we are fixing with every feature i describe, but honestly that gets a bit boring.
but let me point you in the general direction: how many files do you have on disk? (count emails, photos, mp3s, videos, word processing and spreadsheet documents, pdfs, bookmarks...) how many files can you view conveniently on your desktop? are all the files you wish to view always in the same place? what about form factors where "files" are completely, 100% irrelevant? why do we have .desktop files in your ~/Desktop folder that copy (and therefore create interesting syncronization annoyances) the menu structure?
i'm not going to give you the answers, as the questions really ought to be enough.
"sarcasm in your comment replies does not suit you"
then you have me confused with someone else.
"reinforces the impression that you are forcing a way of doing things on others, whether they like it or not."
in my personal communication, which includes my blog, i am not here to molly-coddle people. they can get that from me when i'm playing at project ambassador.
now, i could be fake and smarmy and PR conscious 100% of the time. but you know what that would make me? a bullshit artist. it would also rob all the other interesting bits of honesty that people get to see in my blog.
you are suggesting a self censorship that i feel is neither needed nor even really desirable.
welcome to freedom, and say goodbye to consumerism.
"Someone in your position really needs to demonstrate a thicker skin, as I'm sure criticism comes with the territory."
why must i have a "thick skin"; now, i deal with criticisms daily, many of which i am not personally the cause of but simply due to my relative visibility to the world makes me a comfortable and easy destination to send angst towards. i go to sleep each night quite well, all the same.
what you mean by "thick skin" is that i should be willing to endure the abuse of others in silence and with a smile on my face.
i'm sorry, but those who wish to do that will have to either expect poor treatment in return or else start paying me handsomely to put up with their particularly brand of crap.
"It's pretty clear that many people do not have such understanding. Being offensive in your replies to their comments helps no one."
when people act civilized, they receive civil responses. it's that simple.
@Enderandrew: "I however must have missed when you explained why it is so broken that you feel the need to alienate most of your users"
care to back up that assertion? you know, with the same sort of thoroughness you're asking from me?
i'll bet hard currency you can't.
yes, it's different. "we fear change" and all that. but different can also be better; it can also be worse, but you need to start with an examination of whether it is actually better or worse first. then form conclusions.
"I have one icon on my desktop for each project I'm working on. When I open that folder, I access those files I need for that work."
this is your experience. what we have here in folderview allows you to continue working that way.
for everyone else, folderview also lets them work their way.
now someone is probably going to ask "who is everyone else?" (i know, it's hard to step outside our own experience to see the world outside. it's a human condition)
this design was based on the findings of field research i conducted coupled with much reading of research on the topic coupled with a lot of thought and discussion with other people who think about similar issues.
i discovered ... no, that's too big a word, as it was only really new to me, not the world at large ... i came to understand that there were huge numbers of users who try to work very differently from the pattern you exhibit.
so while you've had a desktop that has catered to your learned behaviours, others have been left out in the cold.
i'd also like to see all this code be 100% reusable on devices where "files" are irrelevant. i don't want them having to rewrite the primary user interface because of that one silly idea.
let me also copy and paste the questions i posed in an earlier reply here:
how many files do you have on disk? (count emails, photos, mp3s, videos, word processing and spreadsheet documents, pdfs, bookmarks...) how many files can you view conveniently on your desktop? are all the files you wish to view always in the same place? what about form factors where "files" are completely, 100% irrelevant? why do we have .desktop files in your ~/Desktop folder that copy (and therefore create interesting syncronization annoyances) the menu structure?
there are more, but these are the most basic and obvious questions.
Aaron, I'm not trying to be flippant or combative. I've asked here and on the dot a few times if you could kindly explain why you feel the desktop concept is so broken. Perhaps if you explain, I might even agree with you.
As for explaining how I feel you're alienating most of your users, you're taking one of the most basic accepted paradigms of a computer desktop and changing it.
Sometimes you put people off for a while, but they learn to accept the change as an improvement, but there is always a time of adjustment. I didn't argue that the change was good or bad. Never did I slam it.
I just said that via change, you are alienating people. I'm all for improvement, but we shouldn't ask people to change the way they work unless there is some improvement to justify the inconvenience, especially when first impressions can sometimes drive people away before they take the time to learn something new.
Again, in all your discussions I've come across (interviews, dot, blog) you repeatedly slam the concept of ~/Desktop, but you never really explained why that I've seen. I'm just saying I'm not sure what the problem is, or how you're fixing it.
The people who want a "clean" desktop, and don't like icons on their desktop, want it clean. They opt not to leave stuff there. My wife is very much in that camp. I opt for mostly clean.
This new approach means leaving huge containments floating around. It seems the opposite of clean. In effect, for some users that see a problem, you're making it worse. And the problem isn't in the design of how a desktop operates, but merely a preference of how to use the software.
Lastly, I have another question. I rarely use KDE 4 and have stuck with KDE 3 (and likely will that much longer now, again just a preference) but on the task manager, I don't see an icon/listing for the folder view, as it is a containment. If I have several of these open to represent different folders, how will I easily navigate them? How is this containment approach better than just using a folder in Konqui?
I can see how this containement stuff will make it more flexible.
and I don't think there is a "learning curve" either, it's very simple and will make things better in the end.
Keep up the good work Aaron.
Just some improvement thoughts for krunner:
I think it would be really nice if when you do alt+f2 you exactly this:
http://davigno.oxygen-icons.org/i/runner-1.jpg
Then when you search something it slides down with the options like this:
http://plasma.kde.org/media/plasma_4_1_beta.png
Kinda like the effect in this site:
http://tryruby.hobix.com/
Other than that, I think the buttons needs some work, and it would be nice if the items have more margin, and more contrast.
Keep up the great work!
you see exactly this*
I heard the word "zooming" while reading comments about folder view, and got a silly little idea:
What if folder navigation was done in a way that's similar to zooming in and out of map? This might mean that when I zoom in on a folder, I see the most applied tags, most accessed tags, most linked-to files, most accessed files, most common file names, etc. Zoom in on a bunch of stuff, and it recalculates for it.
please don't tell me to go code it myself, as right now I'm working on first serious app ever, and really don't feel up to the task, especially not when I'm as of yet unfamiliar with C++ or the KDE libraries. I'll be studying those after I get confident in my abilities in Java.
"As for explaining how I feel you're alienating most of your users, you're taking one of the most basic accepted paradigms of a computer desktop and changing it."
You have no hard data to back up your claim that he's alienating "most" users. Hell, there are several people right in this blog who are exited by this change! What you are doing is that you personally dislike this change, and then you extrapolate from that, that since you dislike it, everyone else must dislike it as well.
Another thing you are doing is that you are thinking that "this is the way we have always done this thing, therefore it should not be changed". That kind of thinking kills innovation. How can we do new things, if we should do things the way they have been done for decades? Current desktop-UI is about 30 years old, how about breathing some new life in to it?
I really don't see the problem here. If this container-method was the only way going forward, and you still want icons in the desktop, then why can't you create a folder called "Desktop", point the plasma-container to show contents of that folder, and keep on living like you have done to this day? Seriously, what's the problem here?
"I just said that via change, you are alienating people. I'm all for improvement, but we shouldn't ask people to change the way they work unless there is some improvement to justify the inconvenience, especially when first impressions can sometimes drive people away before they take the time to learn something new."
Are they REALLY being asked to change the way they work? Earlier, you had a bunch of icons in your desktop. Now, you have a container on your desktop that can display those very same icons. Do tell me: what exactly has changed in your workflow?
If no new thinking or no changes are allowed, then only thing left for new innovations if desktop-themes and the like.
"This new approach means leaving huge containments floating around. It seems the opposite of clean."
Well, I think that it's very, very clean. And if you need several huge containments to show you the icons you want on your desktop, then maybe it's time ti re-think your workflow?
And since Aaron said this: "That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. So don't bother with that flame, nobody has anything to complain about. ;)", I really, REALLY fail to see what this complaining is about.
Well, good starting point. Poorly implemented (as far as I can see)
Make it possible that it has tabs, meaning one container can contain multiple folders as defined on tabs.
As it is now, it is pointless in my view
"As it is now, it is pointless in my view"
It's not. It's a tool to display icons and files on your desktop, and that's hardly "pointless". It also acts as a groundwork for future improvements, that could and should kick arse.
The people who want a "clean" desktop, and don't like icons on their desktop, want it clean. They opt not to leave stuff there. My wife is very much in that camp. I opt for mostly clean.
As a general rule of thumb, I pretty much dismiss any comment that uses the word 'clean' as though it's an answer to something, because that's what they've picked up somewhere.
For too long the desktop has been a dumping ground for a ton of crap that is totally disorganised, is disconnected from the file and folders you have elsewhere and doesn't help you to do anything about organising them.
Taking this to its logical conclusion a few iterations down the line, I hope that this will provide a more unified way of organising applications, files, folders and documents and help us get rid of the need for a daft 'start' menu or a dock, purely for selecting, trying to find and starting applications. You can have an organisational unit for every job that you have on, and have all your applications, files, documents and other relevant 'objects' in there ready. There are lots of things you could end up doing with this approach, and we'll probably all learn by doing. Nepomuk and Strigi would be another piece of the jigsaw.
"You have no hard data to back up your claim that he's alienating "most" users."
We're talking common sense here. He is taking one of the most basic precepts of how your desktop operates, and removing basic functionality. Said functionality is replaced by something a little more complicated, and less obvious. You have to go hunting for the answer.
As for "most" users, do you seriously mean to argue that most users don't depend on Desktop functionality, or that most users don't take it for granted? I think this is glaringly obvious, and I can in turn demand that you provide hard proof most users won't notice or mind the change.
"Another thing you are doing is that you are thinking that "this is the way we have always done this thing, therefore it should not be changed". That kind of thinking kills innovation."
Horrific misquote. Here is the kicker, you later directly quote me saying that change is justified with improvements, and that I'm all for these sorts of changes. I'm left to assume you didn't understand what I wrote, or that you opted to react paragraph by paragraph before even fully reading what I wrote, and later when coming across my statement when I said change must be justified, you instead continued to believe I wrote that I am completely against change at all costs. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what I wrote.
Again, for months I've just been asking for a clarification on Aaron's opinions, and never have I attacked anyone, nor blasted any opinions. When I ask for information, in turn I am blasted by people who didn't read what I wrote.
Can I please get a better explanation of what is so horribly broken in the first place? I've said multiple times before that if it is explained, perhaps I might agree with the reasoning, but I certainly don't understand what is broken with the accepted paradigm.
At the moment this is a complete deal-breaker for me a few reasons I've already mentioned. I like having a Desktop folder, and the "improved replacement" is a containment, which does not provide the same features as a normal folder window of a file manager. I also have this huge cumbersome window blocking my desktop.
Given how much I absolutely loathe Gnome, this is seriously going to push me back to Windows full time. I know that KDE 3 still exists, but it won't forever, and that means eventually I have to switch, so I'm not sure the reason not to do so immediately.
@enderandrew "Given how much I absolutely loathe Gnome, this is seriously going to push me back to Windows full time"
Windows? I wouldn't go that far.
GNOME is fast, stable, and conservative. It can be beautiful too: try the OpenSolaris Live CD.
If you really hate GNOME for some reason, Xfce (my current desktop) is worth a try. The Xubuntu live CD is easy if your curious. You arrange your little launchers into a panel however you want.
KDE has always been a more experimental than GNOME. Maybe KDE's new role in the world is to be a testing ground for strange new ideas. It's not a welcome evolutionary development for some (or most?) KDE 3 users but perhaps it's a natural one.
@Enderandrew,
Well, if it is so much of a deal-breaker - why not run KDE4 apps (which, after all, are more likely to be updated and written now) in a KDE3 environment? Quite easy to do, and much like what the early adopter of KDE4 does now but the other way around.
Anyhow, KDE3 will be around for long enough for either of these things to happen:
1. Aaron and the other devs proves to be wrong about how easily the new paradigm(s) are accepted by users. If that happens I'm sure they will find a way to accomodate the needs and the wants of the majority.
2. KDE4 matures enough so that your (and others) objections now will be redundant.
What I'm saying is: be patient. Even KDE 4.1 should, in my opinion, be considered an early stage in the developement of KDE4.
I agree about the Gnome sentiment though...and I would probably still be a Windows user if Gnome was the only choice in town (Fluxbox, Xfce and the other lightweight managers are well, not my cup of tea). So thanks to the KDE devs for making Linux a viable alternative for me!
He is taking one of the most basic precepts of how your desktop operates, and removing basic functionality. Said functionality is replaced by something a little more complicated, and less obvious. You have to go hunting for the answer.
What makes you believe that? What functionality is being removed here specifically?
Horrific misquote.
It's not a misquote at all. Take a look at what I quoted from you above. The gist of your argument is that basic functionality is being removed (untrue, and I have no idea what functionality is essential on an average 'desktop' today since there isn't any), and you then believe that what's been done is more complicated, less obvious and you believe that people who have been brought up with desktops as they have been are too stupid to work it out.
In anyone's book, that's an attitude of "This is the way it has always been done".
Can I please get a better explanation of what is so horribly broken in the first place?
A desktop that you lob shortcuts, documents and files into does not allow you to organise any of those shortcuts or files in any way. Simple. Look up what desktop means and think of what a physical desktop is. Do you just throw pens and pencils straight on to your desk, or do you have a desk tidy?
but I certainly don't understand what is broken with the accepted paradigm.
I don't call an area with a wallpaper that you throw things on to a paradigm. That's what a desktop is at the moment.
and the "improved replacement" is a containment, which does not provide the same features as a normal folder window of a file manager.
If you can show me where the normal folder window or file manager functionality is on your desktop area as it is at the moment, I'm all ears.
I also have this huge cumbersome window blocking my desktop.
I'm curious. What exactly is it blocking?
this is seriously going to push me back to Windows full time.
Feel free, but the odds are you are going to see some Windows interface along these lines at some point in the future as Microsoft grapples with the functionality they tried and failed to put into Vista, and new touch screen interfaces.
"We're talking common sense here."
So what exactly is being taken away from you? Seriously?
"He is taking one of the most basic precepts of how your desktop operates, and removing basic functionality. "
And what would that functionality be? Icons on the desktop? you still have those. Don't you understand that this change enables BETTER functionality down the road?
"As for "most" users, do you seriously mean to argue that most users don't depend on Desktop functionality, or that most users don't take it for granted?"
Maybe. There are several use-cases here. Some people keep their desktops absolutely empty. Some clutter it with icons and stuff. Some are in between. Now, how can you be sure that:
a) most people use the desktop for "storage" extensively?
b) people who use the desktop for storage are 100% incapable of changing their ways?
If both A and B are true, then we MIGHT have some "alienation". But even then those users might dislike the change, but they might live with it, since the see positive qualities in some other areas of the desktop
You seem to think that if this one change is made, users will abandon KDE in droves. I bet that nothing of the sort will take place. Why? Because they can still have their precious icons. Because even if they feel that this is a setp backwards, they will probably think that it's not THAT big step backwards, and that there are other things in KDE that compensate for this thing.
"Horrific misquote."
It's not, it's basically the core of your argument: "this is the way we have done this thing in the past, this is the way it should be done in the future as well". That is basically what you are saying.
"Can I please get a better explanation of what is so horribly broken in the first place?"
With the idea oa the "desktop"? Well, I can't speak for Aaron, but I can give you my opinion. The desktop sucks because it requires constant hand-holding from the user. Those icons and files on the desktop? They are placed there by the user and the user is responsible for managing them. By default, the desktop is utterly static that doesn't really provide any added value to the user. Only way the user can get some benefit from it, is through manual intervention and hand-holding.
The desktop is also utterly unsuitable for small form-factor devices where screen-space is limited. And those are the kind of devices where computing is moving.
That's my .02 euros.
"I like having a Desktop folder, and the "improved replacement" is a containment, which does not provide the same features as a normal folder window of a file manager."
Um, last time I checked, you can still have folders (even one called "Desktop") in KDE 4.1, and you can still manage those with a filemanager. And last time I checked, desktop is not a filemanager. So what are you argumenting for exactly? For the possibility to manage your files and folders with a filemanager?
"this is seriously going to push me back to Windows full time."
So long then. I hope you have fun using Windows.
"I know that KDE 3 still exists, but it won't forever, and that means eventually I have to switch, so I'm not sure the reason not to do so immediately."
Well, how about this: you current system works, right? Well, keep on using it then. When KDE 4.1 is released, try it out. Use it for a few weeks. If you still hate it (honestly, I fail to see how icons on the desktop can be such a big deal), then go ahead and switch. But it just might be that you love it. If you switch now, you will never know.
KDE has always been a more experimental than GNOME. Maybe KDE's new role in the world is to be a testing ground for strange new ideas.
For some strange reason, I get the impression that this is what some people hope will happen ;-).
This feature owns.
it means that i can have something in /home/diego/work/blah and point my container to that directory and see it on my desktop directly.
it just rocks :D
Aaron in this cases should have the same attitude of Linus Torvalds.
"If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do." -- Linus Torvalds
I read this article when it was posted and have been following the comments since then but I think I have just "got it".
This is great.
I feel sad that Aaron who puts so much time into communicating as well as developing is being battered with what I think is a groundless complaint.
"I doubt half the things (positive or negative) would have been said had we all been standing/sitting around in a room together discussing this"
I think about sums it up. Listen and try hard to understand.
The desktop is no longer just a folder it is the control centre from which we navigate our information machines.
This does not reduce functionality: It is a more sophisticated metaphor but it need not be more complicated for the user. After years of struggling, trying to make a sufficient interface for my data out of the desktop/panel/menu I think KDE4 and Plasma in particular (honourable mention to NEPOMUK) have produced it.
Gadgets and widgets are are just what they sound like, Plasma in contrasts continues the tradition of KParts and finds the best place to make an abstraction so that our tools are really flexible.
Truly, this was the desktop environment from which which the Gods wrought the universe. credit xkcd.
I've had a go with it for an hour (new Stephen Binner CD). I really, really want to like it but I'm still finding it quite painful to use.
I've used various KDE 4.0 live CDs so I should know what to expect by now.
It is more stable than before - Konqueror crashed though. The plasma panel crashed once but it immediately recovered to the default.
For 4.2 we urgently need to address accessibility in a serious way. (My female other half has poor eyesight and simply will not be able to use KDE 4.)
Are there such things as"search folders" in KDE4? What I mean by that, is that a search query with e.g. Beagle (is that Strigi in KDE4?) can be saved and represented as a folder. If such search folders could be viewed in these containers, that could make them even more usable.
@jakob: you mean something like this
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3443
or this
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3426
if it's not in 4.1 I'm quite sure it will be in 4.1
@Aaron: sorry for bothering you, but is there an option somewhere to bring the dashboard to the front by moving the mouse to a corner like in the 'Present Windows' effect?
Thanks
KDE4 rocks
"Windows? I wouldn't go that far."
I would. I loathe most Gnome apps, and the lack of control over my desktop. I use KDE because I like my box to operate exactly how I want it to operate. So far KDE 4 presents less control to me as an end-user. If I were a coder, I'm sure I would have more option via Plasma, but I'm not. Many of the basic options of KDE 3.x still aren't available yet, so I've held off on switching, but I've been very eager to someday make the jump that I will likely never make now.
@Jonas
"Well, if it is so much of a deal-breaker - why not run KDE4 apps (which, after all, are more likely to be updated and written now) in a KDE3 environment?"
That is what I currently do. However, support for KDE 3 will likely last 18 months to two years. As major distros roll over to KDE 4, and all new coding is being done in KDE 4, I won't be able to stick with KDE 3 forever. I switch to KDE 4, or I switch back to Windows. At some point I have to make that jump, and unless a distro creates their own patch to put this support back in (much like Oxygen was forked just to add in color support) I won't be using KDE 4.
"KDE4 matures enough so that your (and others) objections now will be redundant."
My immediate objections are three fold.
1 - New users using KDE will be turned off at first glance. I try to convert many users to Linux, and thusly KDE, but I have to spend time helping them adjust. I like to minimize the adjustment period, and if it is too much change at once, they refuse to learn something new. Many Gnome users trying out KDE 4 will also be immediately turned off. Me, as an advanced user will be immediately turned off, not for the inability to learn, but because I'm having functionality removed and I see no real benefit. Someone can try to sell me on the benefit, but I'm not seeing it.
2 - I think containments are really the wrong way to go. I understand that I can inconvenience myself to recreate the functionality via a containment, but I find that silly. I could just open Konqui or Dolphin to view files. Adding a seperate containment seems to be reinventing the wheel for no good reason. With a file manager window I can have tabs, and all the power of a file manager. It also operates like any other window, and I can switch between those windows, and navigate them like normal. The sample screenshot shows no task bar entry for the containment, because containments aren't treated like windows. I'm told to open containments to view folders, but when I have tons of windows open (as I often do) I will now find it difficult to juggle my view.
3 - The design philosophy here completely puts me off. Linus advocates KDE because it gives him the freedom to configure things exactly how he wants them. KDE out of the box isn't perfect, nor is it designed to make everyone happy. But with choice, almost everyone can be happy. If you want a special plasma containment folderview, then have it. I won't object. But don't take my Desktop usage away simply because you don't want to use it. Forcing everyone into one camp just because you prefer something different seems to be the antithesis of everything I thought KDE stood for. It is one thing to expect people to program in a bunch of different options, and duplicate efforts. What we're talking about here, is taking developer time to remove basic functionality, for a reason that Aaron doesn't seem interested in explaining. If this philosophy is the future of KDE, then KDE isn't for me.
@segedunum
I consider myself a foremost expert on the intentions of my words. I never suggested I'm against all change and innovation. Absolute statements tend to be wrong. If anything, I've been vocal about more change. Plasma was supposed to be this huge revolution in how we see a GUI, and I have asked repeatedly how Plasma was going to do this. I'm all for a revolution that brings improvements.
"A desktop that you lob shortcuts, documents and files into does not allow you to organise any of those shortcuts or files in any way."
I'm sure a better way likely exists, but that doesn't mean we throw away the current paradigm before we invent the new. I organize everything on my desktop amazingly well. I have project folders, and then subfolders. It is absolutely amazing. You should try it sometime. You suggest that you have no way to organize files. How do you organize files anywhere else on your hard drive? The real issue here is representing a folder on your Desktop. This paradigm has existed as long as GUIs have to an extent. Why remove that?
@janne
"And what would that functionality be? Icons on the desktop? you still have those."
That statement just isn't true. There are no icons on the desktop. There are icons in a containment if you figure out how to set it up, and then you have this huge, ugly containment blocking your desktop.
"Don't you understand that this change enables BETTER functionality down the road?"
I certainly accept that might be the case, which is why I've REPEATEDLY said I'd like someone to explain the benefit to me, and perhaps I'll even agree with it. You must have missed how I've said that in every post. I strongly disagree that you should remove functionality before you have a better system in place.
@enderandrew: I'm sure you can still throw icons and directories to the plasma desktop, but I'm not sure if you can throw them back to konqueror/dolphin from plasma, last time I tried kde4 I couldn't do this.
Other than that, I really like the folderview idea, I think it's great.
@Enderandrew,
No, you won't get updates to KDE3.x indefinately. That's true. Although, considering the stability of KDE 3.5.x I wonder how much of an issue that is. For some users, sure. But that's the same regardless of platform.
As far as this change goes, I notice relatively few differences. Let me just outline a few (whether they are good or bad is up to the user).
1. The KDE 3.x (and Windows, Gnome, and MacOS X to different degrees) paradigm equates what is put on the desktop to the respective DE's equivalent of ~/Desktop. You can change the path to where whatever is saved to the desktop is physically located on disk but that's it. This new approach lets you keep that, if you want to, but you can extend it if needed. In my case, I could have one container pertaining to my freelance work as a web-designer and one pertaining to my studies. The old paradigm does not allow me that flexibility. It is all or nothing. In my view, that's a very important (if you're the kind of person that likes to "litter" your desktop that is).
2. The "blocking the desktop" outline of the container is highly dependent on the plasma theme in use. The default one
can be well, in the way, I agree. My favorite http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Glassified?content=81388 does not. It blends into the desktop more, albeit not as seemlessly as the 3.x method. Personally, I think that is good. It makes the user aware that there is something special about what is in that container.
3. The icons in the container, as of now at least, does not allow me to just right-click, choose "Delete" and it is deleted.
Still, the similarities are there as well. If I click on a folder saved to ~/Desktop in KDE 3.x, it opens up in Konqueror. If I click on a text-file it opens up in Kate (or whatever you have set as default). The same applies to the folder-view container.
In short, the difference I can see is:
1. The folder-view container is more flexible (and, which is inherent in more flexible designs, consequently somewhat harder to grasp).
2. It doesn't quite blend into the desktop as thoroughly as the old paradigm.
3. The icons present in the container does not behave as, rightly or wrongly, what we're used to. Then again, neither does the old one. There are no tabs, for example, available on the desktop for any DE I'm aware of. That doesn't seem to present an un-breakable obstacle for say recent Windows converts.
Problematic? Maybe. Depends on the user. If it's a pandemic problem, it can be solved (by, for example, an introduction video).
Looks like a good idea.
Wishlist:
1) transparency! (I like my wallpaper!)
2) the ability to add headings to folderview plasmoids (yes, very ye olde skool Windoze-3.1-esque stuff)
@Enderandrew:
It's not that they are removing functionality, it's that they are restoring it. The functionality was lost when KDesktop wasn't ported, so now what they are doing is adding similar functionality to Plasma.
And you can use Folder View as your background instead of a wallpaper in 4.1, which I guess would be ugly, but at least work pretty much the same as you are used to. In 4.2 Aaron is promising it will look good and work better than it does now. (I didn't try it myself. Yet).
What's wrong with the way things were till now? That the desktop was static. with Folder View, you can change the contents of your desktop easily, and to things other than just normal files. You can dedicate different parts of your desktop for different Folder Views. You can easily change the set of Folder Views to match what you are doing. I imagine eventually Plasma will be given the ability to learn the user's behavior, so that if let's say I'm watching videos on YouTube, it will open /tmp and ~/Videos. Or if I'm using Eclipse, it will automatically open the project folder of the project I'm working on. Or let's say KGet can be set to download files to the Folder View that's used as the Desktop containment, regardless of what folder (or live folder, or whatever) it's currently displaying. That way, if I'm working on college stuff, I open the course's folder in the desktop containment. If I then want to let's say download some images related to my course, I just download them, and know they'll land in the right place without drag-and-drop, copy-and-past, or manually telling KGet where to put them.
Plasma rocks.
Keep up the great work Aaron, you rock.
Don't listen to the people that are afraid of change.
Just keep rocking :D
@enderandrew:
"That is what I currently do. However, support for KDE 3 will likely last 18 months to two years."
I dunno about that. there are some pretty major kde installs out there - french government stuff, brazilian schools, the eee, etc - and they'll have to be supported for quite a while.
anyways, I don't see it taking two whole *years* to get kde4 up to feature parity with 3.5.9... even if kde3 has been around for ...a lot of years. :)
"I think containments are really the wrong way to go. I understand that I can inconvenience myself to recreate the functionality via a containment, but I find that silly. I could just open Konqui or Dolphin to view files. Adding a seperate containment seems to be reinventing the wheel for no good reason. With a file manager window I can have tabs, and all the power of a file manager. It also operates like any other window, and I can switch between those windows, and navigate them like normal. The sample screenshot shows no task bar entry for the containment, because containments aren't treated like windows. I'm told to open containments to view folders, but when I have tons of windows open (as I often do) I will now find it difficult to juggle my view."
are't you just describing why the desktop itself sucks as a filemanager?
anyways, you seem to have misunderstood what a containment is. plasma uses too many new words, I know :)
a desktop containment isn't something you open. it's what you think of as "the desktop", the place where you want to put files and I want to put applets. it draws your wallpaper too. so if you put plugin=folderview instead of plugin=defaultdesktop in the config file, you'll get the "icons on the desktop" thing. there's just two problems with that right now:
one, the folderview can't draw any wallpaper. psst... distros... copy&pasting that functionality from defaultdesktop might maybe work. it's probably too much of a hack to make it into kde svn though, especially since we're frozen.
two, there's no ui for switching from defaultdesktop to folderview. you have to edit that line I mentioned in plasma-appletsrc. sorry, I just didn't have time to get it i before the freeze. I bet it wouldn't be hard to hack up a pyqt4 script to edit the config file for people, though. hint, hint. ;)
both of those problems will be solved in 4.2, anyways. and there's also the option of using the folderview as an applet like i the screeshot - but with a theme that doesn't suck.
"If you want a special plasma containment folderview, then have it. I won't object. But don't take my Desktop usage away simply because you don't want to use it."
the containment thing *is* your desktop usage. or will be. it's just not quite perfect yet. we're trying to make the desktop useful for more people than just the icons-on-desktop crowd. we're not trying to take away your desktop, but neither is it our #1 priority while kde3's desktop works just fine for you ;)
"What we're talking about here, is taking developer time to remove basic functionality, for a reason that Aaron doesn't seem interested in explaining."
no, we removed a buggy frustrating half-functionality that wasn't working very well, and replaced it with a better approach (folderview) that has one very visible disadvantage at the moment. kde4.0's desktop icons generated tons of bugreports and were a PITA. they needed to die. I guess we forgot that not everyone is familiar with their annoyingness :)
"I consider myself a foremost expert on the intentions of my words. I never suggested I'm against all change and innovation. Absolute statements tend to be wrong."
yes, but this is the interwebs, where what you're trying to say is seldom what people hear. I mean, look at all the silly comments right here - some don't seem to have read any further than the title of the post, and then a bunch more have read it but misinterpreted it. :)
also, I think when you talk about switching to windows/gnome/etc you're going to get auto-labelled as a troll by some people, and treated accordingly.
"If anything, I've been vocal about more change. Plasma was supposed to be this huge revolution in how we see a GUI, and I have asked repeatedly how Plasma was going to do this. I'm all for a revolution that brings improvements."
great :) I think this is really just a communication issue.
"I'm sure a better way likely exists, but that doesn't mean we throw away the current paradigm before we invent the new."
which is why the 4.0 desktop-icon hack existed - but now folderview is here, so we're ditching it. true, maybe we could have waited until folderview was absolutely perfect... but those icons were really annoying, and we didn't want them around for another 6 months.
"The real issue here is representing a folder on your Desktop. This paradigm has existed as long as GUIs have to an extent. Why remove that?"
it's not really gone, we're just coming at it from a slightly different angle ;)
"That statement just isn't true. There are no icons on the desktop. There are icons in a containment if you figure out how to set it up, and then you have this huge, ugly containment blocking your desktop."
nitpick: that's when folderview is acting as an applet, not a containment.
anyways, what's ugly here is the default theme. seriously, switch to a better theme. one of the shiny translucent ones. then it won't block your wallpaper so much :)
right-click on the desktop, select 'desktop settings', and you'll see theme config stuff. I think it even has GHNS support :)
"I certainly accept that might be the case, which is why I've REPEATEDLY said I'd like someone to explain the benefit to me, and perhaps I'll even agree with it. You must have missed how I've said that in every post."
I can understand your frustration here. believe me. not getting an explanation sucks... I've tried to explain a little bit here. explaining can be kinda hard, though, so I'm not sure if it makes any more sense :)
I also understand aaron's frustration here, though. the more time he spends explaining plasma to people, the less time he has for coding, and then less work gets done and more people complain about features that didn't make it into 4.1 (plus he has less fun - we don't code just for money, remember). right now he's off in germany or something giving a presentation, so he can't explain things to you *or* hack on plasma. it's one of those tough things to balance...
hmm, maybe he's explained the suckiness of the traditional desktop in some old blog post. maybe someone with free time could go through and look. I've spent enough time on blogs for today - gotta get back to soc work.
So let me clarify a few things.
1 - The picture represents using folder view as an applet, which isn't the intended use.
2 - Right now you can set your background containment to show a wallpaper, or folder view.
I'm all confused now. Aaron has been repeatedly vocal about getting rid of ~/Desktop, but I'm still not sure why.
For months everyone also said ignore the state of the beta releases, and wait for 4.0, but when 4.0 wasn't ready for primetime, everyone said 4.1 will be the release for everyone.
Now, you have a desktop that doesn't function as people will expect, or you can get a folderview, with no wallpaper. That's what you're shipping for 4.1?
If folderview wasn't ready, then why make the change in the 4.1 trunk?
I think you guys seriously need to consider seperate git trees.
I've been looking forward to KDE 4 for a long time now--seems like years (has it been that long?).
I yearned to KDE 4.0, only to be disappointed.
I assured myself the desktop devs would get it right for 4.1.
Seems they didn't. Now I'll have to wait until KDE 4.2. Perhaps then I can finally have a KDE that doesn't disrespect my Desktop.
If I wanted a Model T desktop, I suppose I could use Windows.
You are all free to say that the old Desktop paradigm is broken, but it works flawlessly for me.
I realize the desktop icons in 3.x caused the devs many headaches, but the fact remains that they mostly work, while the desktop in KDE 4 is mostly broken.
The 'icons as applets' notion is awful -- I don't want more wasted screen space.
I'm all for trying new things, but let's not start killing off productive functionality just because some vocal minority thinks it is 'broken'.
All I want to know is: will I ever get a KDE 3 Desktop (identical from the user's perspective) in KDE 4, or do we need to start porting kdesktop to KDE 4?
--Thanks
Mark
"1 - The picture represents using folder view as an applet, which isn't the intended use."
it's one of two possible uses. right now it's the default. the other way (using it as a containment) will be more familiar to you, but undesirable to people like me (I'll use it the applet way if I use it at all).
I think that right now, with the code currently in svn today, the best way to use it is as an applet with a trasnlucent theme.
"2 - Right now you can set your background containment to show a wallpaper, or folder view."
yes. and in 4.2 you'll be able to have both.
"I'm all confused now. Aaron has been repeatedly vocal about getting rid of ~/Desktop, but I'm still not sure why."
We don't want it to be forced on everyone. we don't want it to be the only way of using the desktop any more. we're hoping that as kde4 matures, most people will start playing with plasma and move away from the restrictive 'desktop shows icons from ~/Desktop' workflow and discover there's so much more they can do, and someday it'll just fade into obscurity like floppy disks :)
we're not going to force people to change how they work, but neither are we going to abandon all our cool ideas and work on nothing but boring kde3-feature-parity stuff every day.
"For months everyone also said ignore the state of the beta releases, and wait for 4.0, but when 4.0 wasn't ready for primetime, everyone said 4.1 will be the release for everyone."
well, 4.1 is for more people than 4.0 was. kde will never be for literally *everyone* - we just can't please the entire planet, and trying to do so... well, you've probably heard the fable about the man, the boy and the donkey.
still, we do aim to make kde for a pretty wide audience.
at tokamak we had a discussion about which users we should try to accomodate first, and which to deal with later (we just can't do everything immediately). aaron blogged about it a while ago... basically people who are curious and willing to try new things will get the most out of plasma, and people who don't want change will have to wait a bit longer.
"Now, you have a desktop that doesn't function as people will expect, or you can get a folderview, with no wallpaper. That's what you're shipping for 4.1?"
having the folderview as an applet shouldn't be hugely different from what people expect, I hope. I'm also expecting that distros will polish things up a little.
"If folderview wasn't ready, then why make the change in the 4.1 trunk?"
on the whole, it still sucked less than 4.0's icon thing. feature freeze was coming and we didn't want to be stuck with that code all through 4.1.
"I think you guys seriously need to consider seperate git trees."
but kde uses svn...
there have been plenty of blog posts about the development process recently. something's gotta give.
porting kdesktop to kde4?
wtf?
after all that immense work in plasma, you talk bullshit like that.
GET THE FUCK OFF
git ftw, start using git :D
@mark:
"All I want to know is: will I ever get a KDE 3 Desktop (identical from the user's perspective) in KDE 4, or do we need to start porting kdesktop to KDE 4?"
yes - so long as you don't mean pixel-for-pixel identical. :) feature parity will come eventually. of course it won't be perfectly identical, because there'll be lots of new features kde3 never had too. :)
and remember, if you feel you can't live without some kdesktop feature we haven't reimplemented yet, you can still run kdesktop and kicker instead of plasma.
@chani
Thank you *very* much for your clear and helpful answer. :-)
Having the option to run kdesktop & kicker in KDE 4 removes a lot of the uneasiness about running a Desktop that isn't up to KDE 3.5's core 'Desktop' functionality.
And to the others upset about my query about porting kdesktop:
It absolutely was *not* meant as an insult to those who have put in so much time into making Plasma, but rather to find out if I would have to fix this myself by porting kdesktop.
Thanks,
Mark
sorry, i shouldn't have overreacted like that, is just that i care about plasma so much that i wouldn't want to see going "somewhere else" just because some users that are afraid of change want it like that.
anyways, sorry if i offended anyone.
"New users using KDE will be turned off at first glance."
You have no facts to back that up.
"I think containments are really the wrong way to go."
Well, I think they are the right way to go. And why are you now talking about filemanagers? No, these containers are not as powerful as filemanager is. But neither is your precious icon-filled desktop.
"I understand that I can inconvenience myself to recreate the functionality via a containment,"
Oh yes, the that terrible inconvenience. It must be really terrible to be inconvenienced for few seconds by this matter. Hell, aren't you inconvenienced when you are required to hand-hold your current desktop-setup?
"That statement just isn't true. There are no icons on the desktop. There are icons in a containment if you figure out how to set it up, and then you have this huge, ugly containment blocking your desktop."
Yes it is true. Aaron quite clearly says that you can have the "old skool" icons with this setup as well. And again: what exactly is the containment "blocking"?
"I certainly accept that might be the case, which is why I've REPEATEDLY said I'd like someone to explain the benefit to me"
And you have received explanations. If you choose to ignore those explanations, then that's your problem.
To people who want the old ~/desktop style experience, surely all you need to do is:
(1) make a folder called "desktop"
(2) display this folder as a container on your KDE4 desktop
(3) Make it the size of the desktop
(4) Make the container background transparent
Job done.
I actually think that this should probably be the default setup.
You could then let people see other folders within the master desktop container.
In my view it makes good sense to have a 1:1 mapping of a folder to the visible desktop space.
As much as I see Aarons point and I use (shortcuts) to folders on my desktop for different projects, I don't understand why enabling containment has to mean the removal of ~/desktop.
Lets say I work on not 2 projects but 10 - how now do I quickly get from my desktop to each different project? Essentially I will need a containment containing links to all the others - i.e. a ~/desktop containment. I think it should be there by default.
In the real world physical desktops are mostly messy. This is because this is how most people work. You can't force people to file, and you can't force them to be tidy. The current ~/desktop reflects real physical desktops rather nicely. *** Please don't take it away, just add folder contaiments on top of it ***.
~/Desktop sucks, get rid of it.
I like it, but how about implementing it in the same way apple implements the download directory? (ie: a icon that i click and then it opens a "window" with the icons of that directory)
"In the real world physical desktops are mostly messy. This is because this is how most people work. You can't force people to file, and you can't force them to be tidy. The current ~/desktop reflects real physical desktops rather nicely. *** Please don't take it away, just add folder contaiments on top of it ***."
Hear! Hear! All my current stuff is on my desktop. When it gets cluttered, I move the stuff I don't use anymore into a new folder on the desktop (desktop[iso-date]), including the previous desktop[date] folder.
It is the computer equivalent to shoving everything on your desk into a banker's box for long term archival. Or you could think of it as a stack. Only you don't have to worry about an avalanche of paper with this stack. ;-) You probably won't ever need that stuff again, but since storage is so cheap, why destroy information?
The important stuff does get filed somewhere nice and neat. The really important stuff is also put into SVN. The rest? Who cares? A DE should not enforce arbitrary organization. It should allow for my kind of "First In, Never Out" storage.
Regards,
Mark
I think I'll skip this one and wait for KDE 5.
I think I'll wait until 5.1 (or even 5.2) to avoid disappointment.
another clarification: by default, the folderview shows ~/Desktop. the config dialog even has a special radiobutton for it so you can always find your way back there (and because it enables some extra tricks). the default plasma configuration has a folderview on it, so if all you want is one big one you don't even have to bother with adding widgets. :)
you don't have to go through any complicated multi-step process to find your desktop files.
@Diego:
"I like it, but how about implementing it in the same way apple implements the download directory? (ie: a icon that i click and then it opens a "window" with the icons of that directory)"
that's actually a planned feature :) having the folderview be able to shrink down to an icon, then expand back out when needed. or if it's in the panel, pop up a little window like the clock's calendar.
Holy cow! This is like jumping back in time... wait... 15 years! Can someone remember the Program Manager in MS Windows 3.1?
Just make it stable now.
It's not like program manager, this allows your desktop to have containers, and plasmoids... to do different things than just "have icons" and a lame wallpaper.
Go get a clue.
Gay Gay Gay Gay!
surely all you need to do is:
(1) make a folder called "desktop"
(2) display this folder as a container on your KDE4 desktop
(3) Make it the size of the desktop
(4) Make the container background transparent
I think you're missing the point as to how (I hope) this will end up being used.
how now do I quickly get from my desktop to each different project? Essentially I will need a containment containing links to all the others - i.e. a ~/desktop containment. I think it should be there by default.
Well done.
In the real world physical desktops are mostly messy. This is because this is how most people work. You can't force people to file, and you can't force them to be tidy.
Congratulations. You've just managed to miss the whole point of why people started using computers during the last thirty years for this stuff. There's a reason why people don't store a lot of records in filing cabinets these days, and why there has been a move to store things in electronic documents and relational databases over the years. The computer takes all the work out of organising this for you. No longer do you have one way of ordering your sales orders by year. You can organise by name, date, sale type etc.
We know that people don't want to file and don't want to be tidy, because people have better things to be doing..... This is why we use computers in the first place.
Can someone remember the Program Manager in MS Windows 3.1?
I can, but somewhere along the line, rather than develop the basic idea and come up with an organisational system beyond applications and a way to present it nicely, someone thought it would be a great idea to just throw everything on to one desktop area.
Think about it. The fact there ended up being a start menu in Windows, or any kind of dock for applications (a 'containment' for applications if you like), tells you that the desktop was an organisational failure before it even got used.
XYNTA
I like the idea. I think that ~/Desktop is dead. It should not be place where users stores their files for long time, it should be place where users just keeps "notes" and such small things what you can delete after the day.
Plasma idea is great, but it needs more good plasmoids, RSS feeds, Slideshow etc, those are just a beging and not so important feature. Until Plasma and Nepomuk and other this kind technologies has got such level, that those are in daily use, people might start thinkin computer more different way than just a files and applications.
I think that KDE group is doing remarkable job bringing Graphical Desktop to such level what it should be done before year 2000.
All what I hope, is that KDE developers starts adding all options and other possibilities from KDE3 and other DE/WM/OS's so users can tweak their desktop as they want to use their PC!
I think that just as they get these basic things to work, they can start rapidly add stuff and give users the freedom what e.x GNOME lacks.
It's not good usability if developers or usability experts how GUI and other things should be. It's important that the _default_ settings are easy to learn and easy to use, but user has the power and possibilities to change everything as likes.
We need options, settings and configs. Those shouldn't be hided somewhere config files because "it will confuse people". That's why I have be little worried about KDE4 because it has looked (and still littlebit does) that KDE4 is coming like GNOME2 where you cant change anything because somekind usability expert say so.
These are great technologies what are coming and KDE team just need to remember, they dont know how users likes to use their desktop, only the user itself does know it and they cant know it if they dont have possibility to change settings.
I was worried too about this "No icons on desktop". I like icons on desktop, even that I dont use them ;-) I like the idea that I can choose do I have icons on desktop or do I have container what has those icons. Only thing what I want is that using those icons is as easy as it would be on other desktops. I can drag file from application A and then drag it from desktop to application B. I can copy-paste text to desktop and it will get there as text file or what ever.
And as I told, I really like the container idea and how you can have multiple of those.
These themes and other things, how it now looks, are just a second thing. Now we are talking here about ideas, technology and how we can use the to get better desktop.
If you have ideas etc, drop them to bugs.kde.org as wishes and vote what you want to get up!
Great work KDE!
Oh God!
You KDE developers really deserve a A++++ for your patience! Many people here didn't even read the article and started complaining!
Take a look at what's being done, read things first, test things before complaining! First of all, we are talking about Kde 4.1 trunk; how many of you have even installed kde 4.1 beta to see how those new things work?
I bet most of you just head the title of the article and started (emotionaly) typing... ofending ... etc. Please!! Know what you are talking about so we can have a useful discussion.
Aaron answered, patiently, a "countless" times .. YES! We CAN have icons on the desktop! Just read!
The way he writes the title is just a style of writing ... (it makes the article interesting, actually).
Complain of a thing that was written without even reading it is so "Homer Simpson"!
This new approach is so much richer (in many aspects) than the older one that we can STILL have the old aproach done (like kicker and kdesktop did in the past).
I just can't understand how people get used to things that are really forced (like the terrible new windows explorer/ windows media player design, where the menu has gone, buttons are confusing, etc etc) and keep complaining of a thing that is REALLY flexible (so flexible that it will even be possible to have the old style of making things work)!
Why? Why does it happen?
Augusto
I have now spend time by using KDE 4.1 Beta1 and I must repeat, this no-icons-anymore idea... it just rocks. I just removed the container plasmoid and set from settings the icons back and I can right away find how much slower it is! Difference is like one desktop vs virtual desktops.
I cant wait that nepomuk gets (I hope it will!) integrated to these containers. Then I could have all important files one click away from me, no more need to use dolphin so much or search files deep from home.
So guys, use this new Beta1 at least one hour before flaming it down to he**.
I have tested all plasmoid themes and I like how container looks when it has "Elegance" theme (black background), even that I usually dont like it's kinds!
I was little sceptic about the theme, but because it's just a THEME. It does not matter how it looks on those screenshots. I must say I like more these containers when I can see the box itself and not just small white frame around files.
Post a Comment