What I'd like is your feedback however: which icons do you always hide in the system tray? Here's my list:
- korgac
- krandrtray
- kgpg
- kwalletmaager
- klipper
I don't think this is particular sane as a Default For Everyone(tm), though. klipper and krandrtray should probably both be easily visible to the user.
Leave your list of hidden icons (doesn't need to be KDE specific, either!) in the comments below.
70 comments:
Right now I have hidden:
Kopete
Klipper
KNetworkManager (Wired Connection)
Kwalletmanager
Kontact
Korganizer
kgpg
Visible are:
Akonaditray (only because I was messing with it a bit, it would normally be hidden)
kmix (Now that I have my keyboard volume keys working I should probably hide it)
quassel
amarok
skype
Really the ones that I need to have not hidden are the ones that let me click to get to the app (amarok/skype/quassel)
Make the most usable icons visible and the ones that aren't being used so much hide it automatically.
> Make the most usable icons visible and the ones that aren't being used so much hide it automatically.
NOOO!1 Hiding them automatically is a bad idea, since (for example) someone may use an icon to show information and not often use it (i.e. KNetworkManager shows wireless information). Also, it can get really annoying really fast.
Personally, I don't like the idea of hiding tray icons at all. If they aren't useful, don't display any at all.
hmmm, hiding icons is generally a bad idea, as Notriddle said.
The only icons present which I don't use are kwallet and korgac. Being able to hide those would "unclutter" (if that's a word) the tray, but still, I think hiding them is a bad idea.
Automatically hiding icons is even worse.
I just have to think back in terror to Windows, where you just couldn't tell why your system start-up took 7 minutes until you turned off the auto-hide option in the systray and realized that every app and it's cousin had put itself into autostart.
As far as your (Aaron) list goes, the only one I don't get is klipper. If I use it, I want the icon for quick access, if I don't use it, I just don't run it. Why hide the klipper tray icon?
kwalletmanager, specially.
I'd never hide klipper, I'm all the day long using its "history of last things I've copied".
I probably wouldn't hide any icons... With widescreen displays, the horizontal space is not really a concern for me.
Hidden here are: kwalletmanager, kmix, kgpg, knetworkmanager
Visible: kteatime, skype, klipper, kopete, quassel, kgmailnotifier, ktorrent
I'm in complete agreement with nightrose's systray icon hiding habits. Very sane.
what you are proposing to do is one of the reasons people see kde as being cluttered ..
kde should have a default behavior that isnt on people's way ..people shut have an option to turn on features they want ..not have them on by default and then have them start looking around for how to turn them off ..
while i am still here .why do icons on the tray flicker when switching desktop or minimize/unminimize windows?
KWalletManager, KOrganizer.
I'm a big fan of the ability to hide icons, though I agree with others above that auto-hiding is a bad thing.
I've found that since the hiding function has landed I'm actually running programs I used to ignore because they annoyed me taking up space in the tray (eg klipper).
My current hidden list:
Klipper
KwalletMgr
KNetworkManager
Kmix
kwalletmanager, klipper, korganizer and opera. I really hate the opera icon.
Hidden: Klipper, Strigi File Indexer, KOrganizer Reminder Daemon, KWallet
Showing: KMix, Kopete, Akkregator (to show new feeds)
Right now:
katapult
kget
klipper
kwalletmanager
kalarm (kontact bits)
I keep stuff I use all the time (kmix, amarok, knetworkmanager, kpowersave, kopete) unhidden.
Hidden: kmix, quasselclient, korgac, kwalletmanager, kleopatra
Shown: klipper, akregator, kmail
The list looks pretty much like mine. I think klipper should be visible though; I use it _all the time_.
I think it's one of those little tools that if it could be explained well enough to the user and just a bit more polished could be a trademark of the KDE desktop. I honestly don't know of a whole lot of other desktops that offer something like it.
Hidden:
akonaditray
kgpg
hp-systray
guidance-power-manager
korgac
Shown:
kmix
klipper
kNetworkManager
amarok
Hidden: KNetworkManager, KBluetooth, KWalletManager
Visible: Keyboard Layout, KMix, Power Manager, Korn, Kopete, Amarok, Akregator
I just tried hiding icons on the kubuntu beta install and there appears to be no way of showing the hidden icons. should there be a little arrow or something there ?
Korgac
Klipper
Keyboard Layout Switcher
Hidden: akonaditray and korgac
Visible: NetworkManager, kmix, klipper
Hidden: klipper, kmix, korgac, kget, ktorrent
Shown: kxkb, kmail, akregator
Hidden:
Klipper, Compiz Fusion Icon, Network Manager
Visible:
Amarok, kmix, power manager, kmail
o_O'
I'm very surprised so many people hide klipper... I can't live without this app!!!
I completely agree with the list in your own post, Aaron. Some of them I don't even use, really.
Don't want to offend anyone, but I never liked clipboard apps. Middle-click and CTRL-C is all the clipboard I imagine I can use. I am a heavy KDE user, though, I use it for work (web developer).
don't hide klipper, I use klippers
history list very often!
Strange that so many people hide
klipper.
hidden: knetworkmanager, kwalletmanager, guidance-power-manager
shown: kmix, akregator, amarok
Yeah, hiding is good, autohiding is bad. If you implement it anyway please make it configurable so we can turn it off. And klipper really should be visible :).
I just hide kwalletmanager and the nepomuk indexing systray icon.
IMHO hiding automatically is not the right way to make the user learn "hey, you can hide your icons". Systray icon hiding is *very* personal. The only icons that could be hidden by default I can imagine are kwalletmanager and kgpg.. all the rest could be a problem for the casual user. I think users discover features by actually clicking on them "hey, what does this little nice icon do...?" so for every icon you hide, there's the risk the user won't discover it so easily.
Hide klipper and the user will never learn to use its powerful history.
Hide knetworkmanager and the user will never discover that yes, he/she can configure his/her network so easily.
Etc... =)
Perhaps hiding kwalletmanager is a sane default, but IMO the right way to go for the future for having users discovering plasma's features would be to make a plasmoid that presents the features of other plasmoids. It could offer a default tour and see if the plasmoid which is currently referring to is currently in a visible containment so to highlight it. But that's a suggestion for 4.3, and I'm going a bit off topic. ;)
My two cents.
Showing: Klipper, Kopete, KMix, Basket, Akregator, Amarok, (Spotify), (KTorrent).
Hiding: None.
Would have hidden: Katapult (disabled system tray icon), Superkaramba (don't use it anymore), kwalletmanager (don't use it).
I dislike to hide my tray icons, and I'm with the ones who say that "if it's hidden, it shouldn't be in the system tray in the first place".
Those of you who hide Klipper, how do you use it?
Don't forget the akonadi server tray thing :)
Currently I have hidden (on my desktop machine): keyboard layout switcher, krandr, kttsmg, kgpg, kpowersave, korgac and kwallet
and visible: kmix, Kerry Beagle (actually I should hide that, I dhardly ever use it), Kopete, Klipper, RSIBreak, Twinkle and Amarok.
Forget system tray icon hiding. As others have said, it's pretty useless. It treats the symptoms of clutter, not the cause!
Frankly, I think GNOME (and I think Mac OS X, though I'm not sure) have it right - the area is *only* used for notifications. If you need to have a little icon somewhere on the screen for the running app, you're probably doing it wrong.
I'd like to repeat this again, since I think it's important: hiding system tray icons treats the symtoms of clutter, not the causes!
Good to see systray icon hiding back with KDE 4.2.
With KDE3.5, there was an arrow which expanded the systray for a short while to reveal the hidden icons.
With KDE 4.2 (beta 1), once systray icons are hidden, it takes quite a few clicks to reveal them again.
Are there any plans for icons you want to hide, but still get reasonably easy access to? Or even better, this feature already exists, but I've simply failed to discover it.
Icons i leave Visible
Kwallet
Klipper
KNetworkManager
Kgpg
Kopete
Hidden:
amarok
Kontact
Kget
Kmix
akregator
juk
"If you need to have a little icon somewhere on the screen for the running app, you're probably doing it wrong."
I want my skype window invisible (not on the desktop, nor in the task manager), but I still want to be able to access the main window with an easy click on the system tray icon. So, apart from blinking when there's a message, there's still a very useful option for that icon.
I think your choice of hidden icons is already good except hiding the klipper icon.
Hidden:
networkmanager
guidance-power-manager
emm, I think a toggle keyboard shortcut hide/visible would be cool.
My hidden list:
kmix (now with keyboard shortcuts working)
knotes
kwalletmanager
kgpg
Visible:
rsibreak
kmail
amarok
kopete
I don't think hiding by default is a good idea. I love that feature, as all those icons take up valuable space while bringing almost no gain. But actually hiding is IMO only a workaround. It's nice to have, as it's probably impossible to rely on all the apps in the world in the systray to behave well. But for KDE core systray icons and defaults, the question should rather be: why are those icons everyone here wants to hide actually there at all? How should people know that there are hidden icons, and which? Also, on thing that annoys me about windows is, that you never know, whether an icon automatically has been hidden or is not there at all.
That said my list:
Never visible:
Klipper
Korgac
kget
kwallet
knotes
Always visible:
Amarok
Kopete
Basket
Powermanager
Knetworkmanger
KMix
And weren't there plans to somehow handle icons different, depending on their function? Like those which reference real apps (e.g. amarok, kopete, their entry could even replace the taskbar entry) and those showing merely a status (e.g. kget, kwallet, knetworkmanager) or something like that?
There are a few people commenting upon why people hide Klipper as it gives you the history list - which it does and when I work on XP that is one of the things I truly miss.
However the keyboard shortcut is CTRL-ALT-V you'll never go back once you have started accessing it that way.
I hide:
Klipper
KnetworkManager
KWalletManager
Opera
Kmix - (keyboard shortcuts)
Wouldn't it be possible to make it semi intelligent to and have conditions to hide items such as the power manager is hidden when on AC power and the least used items are hidden automatically like XP or 'Diego' says.
I hide KWallet, wicd (wireless), korganizer and klipper
Shown :
Klipper, Amarok, Kopete, ktorrent
Depends, but mostly hidden : kmix, knetworkmanager
The rest hidden.
HIDDEN
- KNetworkmanager
- KWallet
- Klipper (easy to access even when hidden)
- Battery (I just want to be notified when it's too low)
- KMix (I use scroolwheel on the Amarok's icon)
- KMail (I'd want to have it hidden when no mail and automatically unhidden when there is mails)
- Akregator (same as KMail)
VISIBLE
- Amarok (less used now that I use a plasmoid)
- Konversation (blinking icon powered)
- Kopete
IMO, it would be great if apps can request to be unhidden (when a mail arrive, etc)
I just think that the best sane default is to let every thing shown by default.
May be a tool tip when having more than 5 icons for the first time saying "You could hide some of these to save space" or something should do the trick.
Bye the way : you ROCK hard :)
cheers,
Seb
I agree with the commenters saying not to hide anything.
Really, if there are useless icons in the systray, the apps should be fixed not to use the systray by default. (This affects things like Kopete, Kontact, Amarok etc. Anything with a window should use the window, not the systray.) Stuff like Klipper, on the other hand, is in the systray for a reason and should not be hidden.
just in case people missed it in the blog entry: i noted there that hiding klipper (which is what i personally do) isn't a good default. so .. no arguments there. (just surprised to see how many people brought that one up :)
as for "but they shouldn't be in the tray!" i completely agree.
unfortunately, we do not currently offer a viable alternative.
this is where reality-meets-desire and compromise is necessary. the application developers do not really "care": we've had bazillions of systray icons for years taking up all that space and how many apps have backed off? none.
why? user convenience.
imho we need to offer a way to access those features via the tasks widget, so that the application can, with much the same mechanics as with a system tray icon today, alert the user, give access to a custom menu, etc.
and then the systray will slowly drain out.
but reality is that we're here now due to years of nobody caring to solve the problem at the root, and i think we ought to have an interim solution.
that's all =)
Shown:
KMix
KGet
Knetworkmanager (when oh when will there be a version 4.x?)
Amarok
Hidden:
Akonadi control
Kwalletmanager
Klipper
Korgac
Although I think it is a good idea to hide stuff out of the box, I also like the feature present in that other OS: automatically hide unused icons.
@Jord: "automatically hide unused icons"
the current systray system doesn't allow us to collect such information.
(and people sometimes wonder why i dislike that spec so much ;)
Well, I kind of like the "autohide unused icons" idea, but (and thinking on everyone's sentiment toward such a feature) it would be best to augment it so the user could say 'never auto-hide this'.
Perhaps a better manner would be to have an initial state of 'never auto-hide', and let the user select between 'never, always, and if-not-used-after-a-specified-period'.
One of the things that always bugs me in Windows is when the Icons I want to be visible in the tray are not, and vice-versa. It would be great to be able to have some say over that.
And perhaps, this means a little bit of a change to the API for the sys-tray somehow, but I think it could be well worth it in the end.
I always hide:
Klipper
KMix
KWallet
Keyboard layout
KNetworkManager
KOrganizer
Klipper
KWaller
KNetwrokManager
Is there a way to always show the "show hidden" thingy (Even if there is nothing hidden) and just allow users to right click on it and get the system tray settings.
Automatic hiding is quiet pissing off. If you have ever worked on MS Office 2003 you will know why.
Default hidden apps might piss off some users.
Hi Aaron,
Hidden entries:
kgpg
update-notifier-kde (bit useless)
korgac
kmail (can be turned off)
kwallet
klipper
opera
kleopatra
hp-systray
Hidden: Klipper, Kwalletmanager, Komposé, KOrganizer (I rarely use it)
Shown: Kopete, Volume, KMail Amarok when I use it
KGet: it depends
Please do not hide "klipper" - it is great. no nonsense - I like it.
Hid volume control. keyboard flag, power-manager
Thank you.
"NOOO!1 Hiding them automatically is a bad idea, since (for example) someone may use an icon to show information and not often use it (i.e. KNetworkManager shows wireless information). Also, it can get really annoying really fast.
Personally, I don't like the idea of hiding tray icons at all. If they aren't useful, don't display any at all."
That's fine too, I agree.
Aaron, I'm really proud of being fan of a project where developers (like you) care about users needs.
This "poll" is great!
About hiding icons... I think klipper is not a good candidate for hiding.
BWT I think that if hiding behavior is easy to configure (and beautiful like the plasma panel config GUI), everyone can be made happy :-)
A suggestion, could systray-icon hiding be related to activity? That is: if I change activity icons relevant to the new activity can get unhidden?
Always hidden:
KnetworkM
Klipper
KwalletM
KOrganizer
Kgpg (just sometimes)
Always visible:
Amarok (still I miss a good widget controller for the panel... maybe with the new 2.0?)
Kopete
Kget (just sometimes)
Ktorrent (just sometimes)
Amule (just sometimes)
Opera (just sometimes... that Konqueror fails! :()
Now, a good idea to saving space in panel would bmix Quick Acces with New connected devices.
I have said it before, but I will say it again: systray should be killed. Granted, it couldn't REALLY be done right now, due to various legacy-systems that use systray. But it should be killed as far as KDE4-apps are concerned.
It's way too easy to pile icons in there. And while being able to hide icons helps out, it also makes it easier to keep on piling more and more icons in there.
Right now there are loads of apps and services that put an icon in the systray without really thinking about whether that icon is really needed. End-result is systrays that are brinmming with icons. And that multitude of icons means that the systray becomes less and less useful.
IMO, systray should only display icons that are actively telling user something at that very moment. But even the we should ask: Why not use Knotify instead? Well, why not?
For example: Various online-updaters distros use. Why do we have a systray-icons with bubbles that tell us when updates are available? Why not use Knotify instead? Why do we need to have an icon in the systray telling us "there are no updates available"? It's madness, that's what it is.
I'd say that there's nothing Systray provides that couldn't be provided with the combination of plasmoids, Knotify and maybe Krunner. The sooner we kill the abomination that is the systray, the better off we will be.
When there is a will, there is a way.
But what about my example? I want my skype and kopete main windows hidden and not take any place in the taskbar. With a click on the icon, they appear. Without the system tray that would be gone. You can't let the apps put a little plasmoid in your panel upon start of the apps, because of positioning. So in that case, it would mean the default is "show main window in taskbar" and there should be an option to turn it off and a plasmoid should be placed in the panel. Position of that plasmoid should be remembered, even after closing the application (and thus the plasmoid, since it's not needed anymore).
The system tray does provide me an easy way to get rid of unnecessary main windows, but let me access those applications on the few occasions I want to (logging in, starting a chat, etc).
I can't think of a way using plasmoids or something that would give me the same behaviour.
"The system tray does provide me an easy way to get rid of unnecessary main windows, but let me access those applications on the few occasions I want to (logging in, starting a chat, etc)."
While that lets you eliminate the "main window", in return you get systray that is full of little icons. And that systray eats away space from really useful things, like taskbar.
Like I said, just about all functionality of the systray could be implemented with Krunner, Knotify and Plasmoids. there would be changes in implementations, but it could be done. And in return we would get nore powerful and elegant solution that does _not_ eat precious pixels from the taskbar.
Can you think of any functionality that absolutely needs systray, and which couldn't be handled through some other tools instead?
Don't have an immediate good example, but I can't think of any other way to access those main windows I was talking about, without them having an entry in the panel or taskbar. And a taskbar entry takes more space than an icon. Yes, you can use shortcuts, but clicking should be possible as well.
Don't get met wrong: I'd love to see a way where this gets solved with less pixels.
Guess this is why I'm not an innovator, but a user. :)
In both OS X and KDE I have shown in the systray/menubar: Clipboard app, Volume changer, Wireless Network status icons
In KDE I remember hiding/wishing-i-could-hide korgac, kwalletmanager, and kgpg.
@markrian Apps can and do infact, use the menubar in OSX when they aren't notifying of anything, even apple's own products (e.g. Screen Sharing). They do not however, do this by default.
If you start an app up it will not automatically pollute the systray and this is something you must explicitly tell it to do. This is something which KDE apps need to fix.
"Don't have an immediate good example, but I can't think of any other way to access those main windows I was talking about, without them having an entry in the panel or taskbar."
How could user get to the main-window of an app that is minimized to systray, if you do not have a systray and it's not in the taskbar either? How about "re-launching" the app? Either from an icon in the taskbar, Kickoff, Krunner, however you do it. That's how it works on the Mac. When you close the app-window, the window closes, but the app keeps on running in the background. The user can get the window back by launching the app again.
One other thing KDE could learn from here is that the app-icons (be it a quicklaunch-button in taskbar or icon in Kickoff) could have a small label on them if the app is currently running in the background.
I've upgraded to KDE 4.2 beta 2 (packages are available for kubuntu, even though release announcement hasn't occured).
The systray now has an expand/collapse button so I can now find my hidden icons much more easily. Thanks to whoever added that.
Are there plans to add a timer to this? I prefer to reveal hidden icons for a while and then for the systray to revert to hiding them again without the need for another click.
The main reason people seem to want to hide klipper is because they are using it with the defaults which makes it a lot less usable. (IMOHO). I'm still curious if we should not change the default amount of history items to 2000 (instead of the 7 it is now).
One thing that I think is a good idea is to make the default list different based on some states. Like if its a laptop or a desktop. But knetworkmanager tends to be much more usable when you don't have a connection too. (I'd hide it if its connected)
my list;
hidden: kpowersave, kde keyboard tool. kmix, korg
Showing: Kopete, wallet manger, klipper, skype.
@Janne: I don't think your fully appreciating others' use cases. Why is the systray there in the first place? It holds the processes that don't fit in the immediate context (what I'm working on now'ish), and don't fit in as invisible processes in the background. Its the tasks in this middle layer, that don't get active attention, but when needed you just point your attention and are quickly satiated (like the time).
..."just about all functionality of the systray could be implemented with Krunner, Knotify and Plasmoids"... So you end up just recreating the functionality of the systray, but disjointed... or you end up with the systray-ng (or a very near cousin). I like the idea of the launching icon having status so you can relaunch; but this does not fulfill my use case, if I launch from a menu or terminal(etc) and want a 'time like' state icon of the app. jm3c(tm)(r)(c)
I like dynamic, intelligent, context aware apps; but always as servants to my habits and chosen constraints.
Hidden: kwallet, korganizer,kgpg,kpowersave
Hmm ok this is perhaps very late but I used to hide:
- KTorrent
- Korgc
- Kmix
- KWallet
Kmail only shows up if I have mail, and I gave up showing RSS feeds when they spiralled into the 1000s ;)
What I'd love is when on Mains power Guidance would go away, I only need to see it when I'm on battery.
Same with KNetworkmanager, I only care if I have a problem or I'm on wireless.
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